I also attended a clinic given by a dressage rider that was advertised as working to “improve your feel”. I googled her (and even asked about her on COTH!), but nowhere did I see it was a basically a Parelli clinic. I paid a LOT of money to attend with my horse, and it was all ground work with a rope halter- and my horse and I are is actually quite good at that because she was started by an excellent NH fellow. I was very ticked off, and certainly did not learn anything useful.
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Two things occur to me …
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Expectations higher than they should be: There is a tendency to believe that a particular trainer is a miracle of knowledge, based on the very curated videos and other material that is published about by them or about them. Then there is the correlated tendency to be excited to spend a large amount of money to attend one of their clinics, thinking to personalize and magnify that video/book/researchy experience. Almost everyone is subject to this tendency, and to some over-anticipation of interacting with a particular clinician.
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A demographic of people who have reached middle age and have some financial security, and want to do something new and important that they have never done before - like buy a horse and do amazing things with it. These days we seem to have a lot of horse owners n this category. Who thought they were buying an animal that would fulfill lifelong dreams, only to find that it is an animal that is large, needy and clueless about what humans actually want. Or that human expectations have anything to do with them at all – they see ‘expectations’ as something they have of humans, for rations and treats.
I’m guessing that this creates a collision into impossible situations for traveling clinicians who make their living from clinics. How does a clinician create an image of ‘progress’ when there is so little to work with? And yet this is their living, and people are paying well for it.
It’s one thing to take people who have some basic competence with their horses, improve on what they are already doing and add some techniques that they understand fairly quickly. It’s another to have a class of people who don’t even know the basics of leading, know almost nothing about horse behavior, and who are intimidated by their own horse.
Horses take hold of people’s imaginations in a way that few other species do. People who don’t know horses don’t register the difference between imagination and reality. I suspect that these general-audience clinicians are bumping into that hard, these days.
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We did the same, that was actually fun. You had to look up and pay attention, threading your way through oncoming traffic and letting your horse get acquainted with the arena.
We did a good bit of ground stuff in terms of teaching a feel on the rope- backing a horse off with just a shift and asking them forward with a similarly small shift. He did his best to help everyone equally, but I’m sure he skipped those who were just socializing, I don’t recall. Two good things I witnessed- one girl came on day 2 and said her horse wouldn’t load. Ray borrowed another girl’s experienced groom and off they went and they were back with the horse in what, maybe 30-45 minutes? And later in the clinic he leveraged his wife to help work on teaching the horse to load more sensibly.
the bad thing was overwhelming a soured gelding about crossing water.
Anywho - I think if I were the OP it might be worthwhile to email him (Buck) through his website. Tell him what you’ve told us here. What’s the worst that can happen? Nothing? But maybe he’ll hear you.
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plenty of room, looks like 
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Response: “Yeah, when are you going to start teaching and stop riding your horse?”
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I feel that most clinics suffer from one or two critical problems. The first is that there isn’t all that much in the way of gatekeeping, other than who can pay, so the clinician tends to end up giving attention to either the least or the most experienced people, depending on his or her inclinations.
The second, for clinicians who have A System, is that sometimes The System actually can’t fix the horse or rider’s particular issue. I went to a rider biomechanics clinic, because it was being held on-site at the dressage barn where I was leasing a horse. Biomechanics, position, and rider tension are certainly all very important. But for some of the horse-rider pairs, they really weren’t the main issue. So the clinician ends up focusing on the riders and horses that demonstrate the workings of Their System, and you’re kind of out of luck if you’re not interesting to the clinician. Or you get advice that might be interesting and useful on other horses, but not to your particular horse.
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Is there a reason why a lot of western-focused clinics seem to have a very large group mounted for the entire day, rather than shorter sessions with smaller groups? I’ve noticed the same thing at extreme cowboy and obstacle-type clinics, where it’s just a ring full of horses who get very little one-on-one time as a result (the rider having the most trouble out of the large group ends up taking up most of the time spent on every exercise throughout the day).
I’ve done plenty of jumping clinics and I enjoy the format of being able to audit for most of the day, and then ride my 1.5 or 2 hours with three or four other riders. I think I would tune out if I spent most of the day just sitting on my horse, waiting for my turn.
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I read COTH for cultural insights. A groom in attendance on someone participating in a NH clinic @Djones? That is a real culture clash, surely?
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Has anyone ever heard what happened when he lost his horses? I know it was announced but never talked about. Maybe that has something to do with Buck’s behavior. Or he could have family problems. Or he may just be burned out.
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At one of Buck’s eastern US clinics 20+ years ago, one rider was (I think) a BNT with a couple of nice looking hunter type horses. They stayed at a private farm near the clinic and the groom shipped am and pm horses back and forth and had them tacked up and ready to go. Everyone else was strictly hands-on.
well, I mean-yes, but this mix would have been weird at any clinic. The clinic attendee lived close by and had polo ponies. Her groom arrived with her horse for the clinic and she arrived soon after by car. She was just as nice as could be and leapt at the chance to help Ray and her fellow attendee. Again- lots of folks in that particular clinic had been (to my eye) asked by the clinic host/farm owner to fill the clinic. There were foxhunters, polo folks, etc, along with barrel racers, some field trial folks, just a crazy wad of people. @alabama and I lucked into lunch with just Ray and his wife and the farm owner at a little cafe.
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Regarding John Lyons, I have an acquaintance who totally bought into the John Lyons style of training - took lessons with a “certified” JL trainer, her horses has to by “Lyonized” to be any good. I think she got tired of waiting for the horse to decide to move (yes, that was a thing) and moved on to Mark Rashid I think.
Worst one I ever audited was Craig Cameron. It was at a horse expo and the stands were filled with the usual middle-aged women afraid of their horses hoping for a miracle. They were all oohing and ahhing while he spurred and jerked on his nice horse’s face. I watching about 5 minutes of this and left. I wanted to punch him right in his pearly white dentures.
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My posts on here about Buck from 2011:
“I would definitely audit first. You will get a lot from auditing. I rode in one a few years back and it was not worth the time and money compared to what I got out of auditing the other session – I filled a notebook with notes. I have to say I am surprised no one has mentioned how bitter and mean he is. The clinic was on the east coast and his nonstop theme was that easterners are stupid, English riders can’t ride and auditors just ask questions to hear themselves talk. He would mimic and belittle auditors from the day or session before and riders from other clinics. He spent close to half the time in his own little world working his horse while ignoring the riders. The place was abuzz with shock. I spoke with one auditor who had been following Buck and Ray Hunt for years who said he used to be very different and felt he had become too bitter and should retire. The barn manager asked me what I thought as I was heading out the last day and I gave a half-hearted “it was okay”. He said, “Yeah, we won’t be having him back”. I saw him on Letterman last week and couldn’t believe it was the same guy. He actually seemed genial. I don’t know, maybe he just had a bad four days.”
“I don’t want to be misinterpreted, he was not directly mean or disrespectful to anyone who was there at the moment. His disparaging comments referred to easterners and English riders at his clinics on the east coast the previous weeks, auditors who had been there the days before and other clinicians. It just seemed like he didn’t like anybody and that we were all going to be made fun of at the next clinic. He did share a wealth of information with the auditors and stayed as long as they had questions. It was the same for the riders. He would answer your questions and help you, but he rarely offered it. They had to ride into the center, interrupt his “diddling” (his word) with his horse, and ask for help. He would readily give it, then go back to diddling. Outside the sessions, he was off the clock. He would walk into the lunch area or through where the riders were untacking or tacking up and not even acknowledge that other people were there. A love of people is not a requirement for a horse trainer and I do not expect horse people to be especially personable, but I had just read “The Faraway Horses” before I came to the clinic. In the book he tells how he was snubbed by a professional when he was young and vowed to always be accessible to everyone and never make anyone feel insignificant like he had been made to feel. I have clinic-ed with Deb Bennett who is not for shrinking violets – but she does not profess to be and she gives her full attention to the riders at all times and never stops sharing information – even at lunch. When you pay $600 you expect to have the clinician’s attention on you and to be offered help even when you don’t know you need it. That being said, the auditors get much more than their $25’s worth. Auditing a BB clinic is the deal of the century if you ask me.”
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I audited a BB clinic and took away nothing that was useful. He was doing a little more teaching but ignored the more inexperienced riders and was only interested in the ones that knew how to rope. It wasn’t a roping clinic either but one of the things he was having them do is to lope a small circle and then rope a barrel. So the novice riders didn’t get any value out of it and frankly, I thought it was boring. But we had fun making fun of the ones who had the BB hat at the same angle as their guru, the BB chinks, the BB saddle with a rope whether they knew how to use it or not, and the chilly, I’m too cool for you attitude.
I couldn’t imagine spending that exorbitant amount for a clinic to be summarily ignored or had to listen to him make fun of people who ride different disciplines. I’d like to see him get on any 5* horse and do a run around the LRK3DE and then tell people English riders don’t know how to ride.
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The only clinic/seminar i’ve ever been to was back in 1990? 1991? in Sonoma. Dennis Reis. He’s of that same class of cowboys with all the levels and the schtick. I went because a bunch of my barnmates where just enthralled with him (because cute butt and cowboy hat i think?)
Anyway, four or five of them went through all his levels, took his clinics etc and worked their groundwork magic with their horses in the main arena in front of eachother. I practiced some of the stuff, and thought, hey, why not just ride. And taught my horse and i to ride liberty. not in the main arena though LOL…down the lane in the sandpit. A year or two later, when he (dennis reis)came to give a clinic at our stables i went into the ring at lunch time and showed off. Bareback/naked horse. Me with arms outstretched most of the time (which i used as a visual cues/balance cues --like flying)…doing walk, trot canted whoa, back up. Turn right/left circle …make circle bigger, canter it trot it other way etc. It surprised them all…they never even thought about riding a naked horse. I just extrapolated the basics i learned in his introductory class which in the end, i really DID get a lot out of!!! Glad i didn’t follow the other levels and lessons because i would not have thought outside the box as easily. I really do do much better if i can make it up as i go.
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I recently went to a cow clinic with a local trainer. We paid $75 each for four hours. I have a young horse who has seen cattle before, so I just wanted to get her some more experience pushing them around. There were six participants. Almost all of them SHOWED UP when the clinic was supposed to start, so we had to wait for them to saddle and get to the arena. A couple of them had absolutely no control of their horses, so the clinician spent most of the time working their horses. I got to work cows for exactly five minutes. The rest of the time was spent standing around while the clinician loped their horses in circles. Never again.
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Wow. So your experience matches almost exactly with the OPs, 9 years later? A few bad months or a couple of bad years, okay. But 9+ years of this behaviour? Sounds like this BB guy is, quite simply put, just a massive d-bag.
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So, if we assume that $100 of every participant’s $750 went toward facility rental and expenses, Buck would have made $22,750 over one weekend.
He strikes me as someone that is high on ego and truly believes he is a better horseman than anyone else out there. While he’s good with horses, I’d bet that there are plenty of no-name trainers out there that are just as good with horses, but focus their time on making good horses rather than self promotion so nobody has heard of them outside their local area and discipline. Also, being a good horse trainer does not mean one is a good human teacher.
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I’ve audited some big-name riding clinics over the years and have paid good money to have my junior rider ride in a few as well. The disciplines were different, the ages and skill levels of participants different as well. But it made me sad to see how the common denominator pretty much was a notable horse person who had contempt if not straight-up meanness toward the participants while not giving much instruction. It made me sad to see enthusiastic riders (mostly women) being treated like this and still sign up for more and sometimes swarm like bees to honey around the clinician. The teachers’ acolytes will spring to their defense and pile on the people who noticed they didn’t really get anything for their money or effort . For the first couple of clinics, I thought, ok, riding’s not a gentle sport and all that. Or maybe the clinician had a bad day or week or whatever. But then I went on writer and art retreats and saw the same exact thing, just different details–well-known (mostly male–but yes a woman or two) teachers who took considerable amounts of money for very little real instruction and the hungry-to-learn participants hanging on for scraps of attention. Judy Renee Singer had a funny but revealing chapter in her horse book “Horseplay” about this dynamic. Guess it’s pretty common, sad to say.
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The best “clinic” (if you could even call it that) of any discipline I ever attended was a demonstration put on by a no name trainer as part of a mustang adoption event.
The demonstration was “how to work with a horse that has been messed up by someone else.” Ok, that wasn’t the official name, but he was working with a horse that had been returned to the BLM after the first adoptor found the horse too dangerous/hard to gentle.
I think the goal was for it to be one of those first touch/join up type demos where in an hour or less the horse goes from feral to submissive and receptive to training. He this no name trainer didn’t even close to that, but it was okay, even refreshing how he didn’t let his pride or ego get in the way of the horsemanship. That horse was better for having been in that demo.
He spoke through everything was doing, why he was doing it, what the horse’s response would be, why the horse was responding that way, how that would relate to future training and riding, what was happening if they didn’t respond the way he anticipated, how he could change and adapt when plan A didn’t work. What struck me the most was how attentive and flexible yet humble he was with the situation— some of these guys get so formulaic with their method and between that and their ego, it brews negativity and blame placing. But not this guy. Everything he did just made sense.
I wish I could remember his name. But I got a thousand times more out of watching him work with a horse for less than an hour than I did watching BB for 3 days.
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