Bucking and kicking out, resistance to leg

[SugarCubes]

I guess I’m looking for a little commiseration, and/or stories from those who have been through this same “phase”, as I have a wonderful trainer who is helping me work through this.

I have a young (6 year old) warmblood mare that I’ve owned for nearly a year now. She has only been under saddle for a year and a half. She’s a very quiet, lazy, unreactive type. She has always taken some encouragement to pick up the canter (i.e. trots the long side before picking it up), but the last couple of months we’ve been expecting more of her and are asking her to be more responsive and sharp in her transitions, which requires getting after her with the crop when she ignores my leg.

Since then, she’s begun bucking or kicking out in response to the crop. In my mind, I totally get the issue…she doesn’t respect my leg, I tap her with the crop and she still resists by bucking, I tap her again, she bucks again, another tap, and she’ll finally agree and go into the canter. Lots of praise.

She hasn’t come close to unseating me, but it is just getting annoying. I’m just wanting a little more of a “Yes, Ma’am” response from her! She is better with my trainer, but will still pull the same crap when trainer asks her to work a little harder.

We just did a full lameness exam a couple of months ago and I have a full set of xrays. Zero indication this is anything but a phase. So, please tell me at some point she’ll get over this? She’s lovely to ride when she is actually going forward, would love to get over this hump :lol:

[findeight]

She will get over it when you get quicker to apply the correction and do it at all gaits, all the time. Even walking, you ask for an up transition, she complies immediately or gets a stronger ask followed by the stick behind the leg.

Don’t wait until you feel her shift forward to set up the kick up behind and she has to shift forward first. The instant you feel her start to set it up is when to correct it, not after she kicks up.

You need to be sure you don’t get tense or get frustrated with her, mares are smart, that’s their goal, to get you frustrated. Don’t go down that rabbit hole, don’t react to her, sit chilly and calmly apply correction…you get emotional, she wins the round. She knows when you are frustrated, she likes that. She’s a mare. And she’s being a brat.

Might be best to have trainer rider her for a month or so as trainer is more likely to feel it starting and correct it then as well as remain unemotional. Don’t back down to her demands as the training program gets more sophisticated and asks more of her just because she’s being a brat. Many younger horses go through that stage as the training picks up. Like raising a teenager…

[supershorty628]

My trainer always emphasized that if you were going to use the crop, you wanted to get an overreaction, not just the transition to the gait you wanted. If you use the stick behind your leg, she should shoot forward, not just gradually increase her pace to doing what you want. Get a reaction and get it right away. If she kicks out at your leg, you’re not done correcting it. Your trainer can probably fix this, but my guess is that the mare will keep testing you and you’ll need to do it a few times too.

Note - you don’t have to smack hard; I’m not advocating beating your horse. But you need to smack hard enough to get an overreaction, and you need to keep going with the correction until you get the reaction you want.

No emotion - that’s critical with any horse but especially with a mare - but consistent correction. Every single time.

[endlessclimb]

Question:

Can you get prompt transitions on a lunge line with voice cues, without chasing or snapping the whip?

Personally, that is where I would start with this horse. If she doesn’t promptly respond to up and down cue, give her a stern consequence. Once up and down transitions are immediate, I would go back to working on this under saddle, using the voice cue as a “second chance to get your a$$ in gear” before going to the crop.

Everything you do with this mare needs to be crisp, not sluggish. Ask her to back up in the cross ties - NOW. Ask her to stop next to you while leading - NOW. It needs to be clear to her at all times - when you ask for something, she’d better give it like she means it or there are consequences and re-dos.

[Abbie.S]

Honestly…I would ditch the whip/crop.

Every case I’ve worked with (including my current horse, who was very sucked back to the leg initially) where the horse needs to be taught to go promptly off the leg and a crop/whip was used the horse continued to kick out/buck when the whip was used. A) It can and often does hurt, and at that point you’ve lost any willingness the horse might have had to go forward off the leg, and B) it’s an escalation that the horse doesn’t understand because now you’ve given an aid you WANT the horse to respond to (the leg) and then given another “aid” that the horse doesn’t always correlate to the initial aid.

I think you’re also making the mistake a lot of people make - your horse is not a tube of toothpaste. You don’t squeeze with you leg and have them respond to the squeeze. You want them to avoid the squeeze altogether - this is how you get a horse that is utterly light and soft and sensitive to the leg - they are looking to AVOID the squeeze.

I expect my horses to liven up when they feel my calf come on. Those that haven’t or have proven they aren’t interested/have difficulty getting there, I do this: from the halt, I take my legs WAY off my horse and wiggle my feet around in my stirrups so my horse knows they are there. Most of them go “huh, that’s weird, wonder why she’s doing that” and ignore it because it means nothing to them. I give them a few heartbeats to think about what they might do in response and if they do nothing, I bring my legs down on their side as hard as I can (I mean REALLY womp them, so snot flies out their nose, that sort of intention). Most horses that are dull at that point just slug forward. That’s fine. Then I do it again. By the second, third, fourth time, that horse feels my legs come off his side and they are scooting forward to avoid the womp that they know is going to follow. From there you can refine it quite easily.

It sounds like you’re pleading with your mare to go forward. Be more black and white - this is the cue, and this is what happens when you ignore the cue. I consider it a cardinal sin for any horse to be allowed to ignore the leg - you cannot possibly go any further in the horse’s education if they are dull to the leg aid.

[Training_Cupid]

Cupid has a similar personality, and just this week has been giving a similar reaction when I asked him to canter in his more difficult direction. On a whim, my trainer said to try asking just with my seat - the worst that can happen is that he just continues trotting. I didn’t really expect it to work, but I tried and we got a decent up transition with no kicking!
Also be sure to not nag her with your heels throughout the ride, which I can be guilty of but am working to correct.

[meupatdoes]

If you have for sure ruled out veterinary and saddle fit issues, then at the first sign of nappiness my next request would be, “GALLOP, NOW!”

Like a horse leaving the starting gate, even if it takes a sharp “whap-whap-whap!!!” Gallop down that longside like the ground is suddenly turning to lava behind you and you have to outrun it. Make like a barrel racer and GIT GOIN’. Convince both the horse and the rail birds that you have plum lost your mind.

Then after at least half a lap around the arena we can come back down to the walk and try our transition again, and see if we don’t have a little more hop-to.

Otherwise it’s lava time again.

[endlessclimb]

@meupatdoes

If you have for sure ruled out veterinary and saddle fit issues, then at the first sign of nappiness my next request would be, “GALLOP, NOW!”

Like a horse leaving the starting gate, even if it takes a sharp “whap-whap-whap!!!” Gallop down that longside like the ground is suddenly turning to lava behind you and you have to outrun it. Make like a barrel racer and GIT GOIN’. Convince both the horse and the rail birds that you have plum lost your mind.

Then after at least half a lap around the arena we can come back down to the walk and try our transition again, and see if we don’t have a little more hop-to.

Otherwise it’s lava time again.

I like this idea.

[dynamite0319]

I have a mare with a remarkably similar response. She often pins her ears and kicks when legged into the canter. However, I’m pretty sure that if I touched mine with a crop I’d get launched into outer space. I think that if if you’ve been using the crop and it isn’t really helping, it is time to not use it any more. I’ve improved this with my cranky pants mare by using firm, but not harsh leg, and kissing to her. I also stand up in the irons a tiny bit. If I do it all correctly she canters just fine. If I use leg to harshly she is cranky. I agree with previous posters, you can’t be emotional (this was really hard for me!) and you have to be firm and consistent. My mare and I HAD IT OUT over this when she was 6 (2 years ago) and the best thing I’ve found for her snarkiness is to not change and ask the same from her every time.

[SuzieQNutter]

I just went through this with my hubby.

He lets Sim get away with everything on the ground. Even to not putting the bridle on until Sim has looked around and done a million other things. Then expects him to do things when asked under saddle. It doesnt work that way.

They need to do what you ask now. Not in one step. Not in 2 steps. Not after a circle. Not after the long side, not tomorrow. Not next week, not in 2 weeks time, now.

He is not getting Sim forward. I tell him to lunge and get him forward first.

Hubby has never come off.

He decides he is not going to lunge, ‘to save time’.

I look up as I hear hup hup and say and I quote.

You cannot ask for canter from that trot. You need to get him forward first. Let go of the inside rein. Give your inside rein and get forward in trot first.

He comes around the short side, does not change trot, asks for canter again but this time adds whip. Sim has had enough. He pigroots, hubby goes forward. Sim pigroots again and I have never seen this before so a new one to me. Hubby goes forward again and takes the whole bridle and somehow includes the reins off the horse.

I have no idea how, he must have ripped the bit out of his teeth.

He is now in canter with the reins in his right hand.

They go up the long side and they part company. I go up and he is on all 4s. He says he is okay. The bridle is 10m away fully intact, the throat lash and reins are still done up.

He has cracked a couple of ribs and hurt his shoulder.

I ride Sim for a week. I get him forward. I have him cantering when asked. I nipped the procrastinating to put the bridle on in the bud. I have him standing still and not moving without a halter on to tack and untack.

I see him lunging and hear him say trot. Sim doesn’t. I say, say trot once if he doesn’t trot tap with whip. Sim stands and kicks out at him.

I go up and tell him either Sim is telling him that something is wrong or I have NEVER seen a horse disrespect someone so much. I click, tap Sim twice on the rump and he canters happily around us.

Hubby is asking correctly. Now he needs lets call it assertiveness.

Hubby is put on him on the lunge. I get Sim forward. Sim canters when I say the word. Hubby rides him with me in the middle with a lunge whip. Sim canters when I say.

I stay in the house. Hubby comes in raving. Sim is a different horse. He us wonderful.

Yes I ‘have done the same thing twice’ and I have changed the rein and cantered, several times.

Hubby changed the diagonal, Sim was anticipating canter, so hubby now had the forward he needed and rewarded and had a lovely ride. He loves that Sim now canters when asked.

So for you. You need respect on the ground and under saddle. Walk, she is correct when she is moving your body forward and back. Trot do not block forward with the inside rein. Practice transitions within the pace.

Ask for slow as you are not up to collecting yet, before you ask for forward. 3 times on a circle and from now on.

and as I said to hubby, do not ask for canter until you have a forward trot.

.

[IPEsq]

How is she with going forward in hand?

Most balking I see has something to do with pain somewhere. I’ve been to this movie many times including frustratingly with my last horse.

If walk to trot button works fine and if you can get more energy within those gaits but you get balking and bucking at canter, that makes me want to look at back and SI. Starting with saddle. Some are just super sensitive so I wouldn’t just say oh the fitter said it works. Try something else and see how it goes. Especially at this age where you have both some attitude and they are going through body changes. With a mare, I’d also check out any repro kinds of issues that may affect her back.

If your ground work and walk and trot work are not great either, then start by training that to be better.

[MissAriel]

@SuzieQNutter

I just went through this with my hubby.

.

I’m sorry. I read this and thought “hubby is bucking and kicking in response to the whip” - this should be good.

carry on.

[SuzieQNutter]

@MissAriel

I’m sorry. I read this and thought “hubby is bucking and kicking in response to the whip” - this should be good.

carry on.

Bahahaha I really heartily laughed out loud.

[Coanteen]

@MissAriel

I’m sorry. I read this and thought “hubby is bucking and kicking in response to the whip” - this should be good.

carry on.

Yup, a naughty horse is NOT where I thought that post was going from its opening sentence.

[SugarCubes]

@findeight

She will get over it when you get quicker to apply the correction and do it at all gaits, all the time. Even walking, you ask for an up transition, she complies immediately or gets a stronger ask followed by the stick behind the leg.

Don’t wait until you feel her shift forward to set up the kick up behind and she has to shift forward first. The instant you feel her start to set it up is when to correct it, not after she kicks up.

@supershorty628

My trainer always emphasized that if you were going to use the crop, you wanted to get an overreaction, not just the transition to the gait you wanted. If you use the stick behind your leg, she should shoot forward, not just gradually increase her pace to doing what you want. Get a reaction and get it right away. If she kicks out at your leg, you’re not done correcting it. Your trainer can probably fix this, but my guess is that the mare will keep testing you and you’ll need to do it a few times too.

Note - you don’t have to smack hard; I’m not advocating beating your horse. But you need to smack hard enough to get an overreaction, and you need to keep going with the correction until you get the reaction you want.

No emotion - that’s critical with any horse but especially with a mare - but consistent correction. Every single time.

Are you guys spying on my lessons :lol:?!? This is exactly what my trainer keeps telling me - I need to be quicker with my timing and I need to get a bigger reaction. And, great reminder to be on her about this at ALL gaits. I’ve just begun realizing I need to be making these corrections at the walk instead of letting her mosey around when I first get on. Just starting off the ride like that has seemed to make a difference already.

My trainer is on her 2-3 days a week and definitely sets the tone from the get go. Mare is much more respectful of her, but trainer is also correcting her IMMEDIATELY when she resists.

Fortunately, these responses make me feel like we’re on the right track! I totally created this issue…when she first began doing this I was a little hesitant to get after her too much and didn’t want to escalate the situation (aww she’s a baby, I have to go easy on her:rolleyes:) . Now that I’ve raised my expectations, I’ve been able to be harder on her and keep after her until she gives me the correct response.

I totally feel like this is bratty teenage behavior - she was SO easy up until this point, and now that work has gotten harder she’s protesting. I’m noticing just in the past couple of rides that she’s giving in quicker - yesterday she gave me a couple of bucks the first couple of times I asker her to canter but then was super the rest of the lesson.

I showed her last weekend, and was concerned she’d buck during the courtesy circle but she was fabulous…go figure! Apparently I have more of a “get it done” attitude when showing than at home!!

Anyway, thanks all for the advice! I have total faith in my trainer and I do adore this mare, I’m just ready for this phase to be over with! Ohhh the joys of young, green mares…thank god she’s not a redhead :winkgrin:

[Blugal]

My mare is the same age and was put into regular work this year. She did something similar but it seemed out of character. It took me a while to figure out she was sore in her hind legs (inner thighs). Probably just the increased work, jumping and asking her to push from behind and sit a bit more in canter.

I gave her time off, light hacks and lighter works, with stretching and massage therapy. She seems much better now. She’s still on a much lighter schedule given the weather and I hope to slowly increase her fitness again for this season.

[Jenerationx]

Have you tried spurs?

[SuzieQNutter]

Sugar. I am glad to hear you are riding and going well. I didn’t know you had a young warm blood mare.

I am glad to hear that you are enjoying riding. You sound happy.

[SuzieQNutter]

@Coanteen

Yup, a naughty horse is NOT where I thought that post was going from its opening sentence.

Not a naughty horse. A naughty hubby.

Once the rider corrects himself. Suudenly horse does as asks.

[Jenerationx]

@SuzieQNutter

Not a naughty horse. A naughty hubby.

Once the rider corrects himself. Suudenly horse does as asks.

You need to write a book! Correct rider = correct horse.