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Bucking at the halt/walk...vent/sympathy/help?

Dressage
#1

Long time lurker, fairly infrequent poster, but I’ve been struggling lately and figured you all might be able to commiserate/kick in the pants/have suggestions. TL;DR at the bottom

My 9 year old OTTB has been having some on and off mystery issues for the past six months. He would suddenly halt, and then refuse to go forward. Ears pinned, back humped, whole nine yards. Considering that he is normally a very pleasant fellow, albeit a very anxious one, I assumed that this was a discomfort response.

We did a complete lameness exam, including a full set of back x-rays. Nothing notable was present. I also treated for ulcers(made no difference), had the dentist out, and had his saddle fitter out. We ended up doing shockwave on his shoulders and doing work on the ground for three months. Lots of longing in side reins, double longing, and work in-hand. More or less trying to strengthen his hind end and topline in addition to remuscling his shoulders. He looked absolutely beautiful in the lines and was giving me some really nice work (w/t/c, shoulder-in, leg yield, haunches-in, etc).

Started him back under saddle as if he was totally unbroke. We began with someone longing me, with me being more or less baggage(easy to carry, but not really having any input). When I would ask for any sort of forward (halt to walk, walk to trot) the plant & angry pony face would reappear. Eventually with the assistance of a ground person we were able to reestablish that he must go forward from my leg. During this period I also switched to a different girth(TSF shoulder relief) that seems to have made him much happier.

All seems fairly well for a few weeks. We can ride outside, go on hacks, and even jumped a few times. I have my happy pleasant pony back who I enjoy riding. We went to an off the farm overnight outing this past weekend. Fairly high stress for my anxious guy and not a lot (<2 hours) of turnout. He was ridden once each day and spent about an hour hand walking. Due to work craziness he had the next three days off. I worked him last night…and it didn’t go well.

Our ride started off fairly pleasant. Nice long walk on a loose rein, followed by some nice stretchy trot and easy shallow loop serpentines. I tighten my girth, and then NOPE. Pony says no more, he is absolutely done. I gave him the benefit of the doubt and assumed it was because he dislikes my dressage girth, so switched back to my jump tack which I know is not objectionable. However the rest of our ride was spent negotiating that he can NOT plant and buck when I apply leg or touch him with my whip. Eventually, with the help of our ground person and a spin on the longe line we were able to end with a few laps of walk.

At this point I am fairly frustrated. I don’t know what’s wrong, and I am out of money to try more diagnostics. My “emergency” pet fund credit card is just about maxed out. I’m not sure if it is behavioral at this point, or if it is (still?) pain related. It has also been starting to affect my confidence in the saddle as well. Riding a buck at the trot or canter is something I know how to do and address. At the walk and halt I am finding it much harder and don’t know how to respond. It seems whenever I tap him with the whip or add more leg he simply bucks harder. To be completely honest, I’m scared that he is going to absolutely launch me one of these days, or worse that it will turn into rearing. I’m a fairly decent rider, but I’ve also been in college for the past five years and gained about 40 pounds while losing most of my riding muscle. I’m not sure where to go from here. He’s an incredibly talented and athletic guy who I have ambitions of being my upper level horse, but if we can’t even walk that won’t work at all!

If you made it all the way through, I owe you cookies of some sort!

TL;DR: Horse is bucking at walk/halt whenever leg is applied. Vet/Saddle fitter/ulcers/dentist all checked. Rider is out of ideas. Help.

#2

To my nobody special eye, it seem to boil down to this. No one on his back = good, someone on his back=bad. I think pain somewhere when ridden. Sorry you are going through this. Re- run the back xrays and saddle fit with diff providers maybe?

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#3

Also, why the shoulder treatment?

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#4

Are you riding him on contact or on a loose rein?

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#5

Call the chiropractor maybe? How does he do bareback?

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#6

Dislocated rib?

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#7

My 6 y/o OTTB went through something similar recently, and I gave him the benefit of the doubt (time off, saddle fitter, ulcerguard, vet check, etc) and it turned out he was just taking advantage of me! Has anyone else tried riding him? My guy was always perfect with my trainer and just did it with me. I have to be more firm in correcting him. He is sometimes still balky at the beginning of a ride, the first time I ask him to trot, but we generally work through it pretty quick now.

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#8

Why was the shoulder treated?

I sounds like a dislocated rib.

Or it could be behavioral related to your riding.

I would give him a course of 5days on bute and time off. Just lunging.

Then 5 days, still on bute but light /soft riding. (lunge him first.

See if it helps. (If he’s prone to ulcers : Give him some omeprazole during the whole 2 weeks. and only ride after he has eaten and his belly is full.)

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#9

My horse is one who just cannot have time off. Without fail, if he has more than one day off, he decides he is retired and has zero interest in participating in anything related to work.

I know him well enough to know what is a severe lack of work ethic and when he doesn’t feel right.

To me it sounds like he may have your number. You did right by him on the pain front and as best you can tell, you haven’t found anything. My horse does have a touch of something going on in the neck. Previcoxx does make him feel better. You could try something like that or bodywork to see.

If your location is correct, you may also want to see about contacting Peter Whitmore in Orange and getting his assessment of whether it is behavioral or not. I have had good experiences with him working with “problem” horses where a lack of cooperation was the chief issue.

#10

Just another thought: Time off or restricted turn out can really affect horses with even mild PSSM. Common symptoms include angry face/depression and reluctance to move forward. Some horses will exhibit more obvious tying up symptoms or a hitch in their gait.

A blood test after exercise could give a clue about whether this could be the case (? $150 range). A biopsy would be needed for a conclusive diagnosis (another $200?). PSSM is not that common in TBs but it happens. A cheap solution is to not give multiple days off in a row and make sure he is on a lower sugar diet (ex. no oats, lower NSC hay).

I would also test for lyme in these circumstances.

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#11

In no particular order:

His shoulders were treated because there was a fair amount of muscle tightness. It had been there since I purchased him (about 2 years ago) and we figured treating it couldn’t hurt, but might help. After treatment we saw an increase in his range of motion in his whole shoulder/neck area.

He has not seen a chiropractor. I had not thought about a rib being out, but he does like to play hard in turnout. If a rib is out would he show any discomfort on palpation or is this something only a chiro could diagnose?

When he is working I have him put together with a fairly light contact(schooling Training/First). I am not asking for any sort of collection. During these episodes I have tried both having a light feel and a loopy no contact rein. It does not seem to make a difference.

I have not tried sitting on him bareback. I have only done it once or twice in the past. He is not terribly(or even at all) comfortable. He has the traditional pointy TB spine and withers. He also seems to have some anxiety with bareback, though to be fair, he has anxiety over most things its just a matter of degrees.

I agree that it is something related to having a rider on his back that causes it. I can’t get him to balk on the lines no matter how much I push and ask for “hard” things.

In regards to his back xrays, I had five different vets take a look at them. Two at Tufts, my normal vet, my mom(small animal, she may also have had a few of her colleagues/friends look at them), and my cousin(works at Keeneland). None of them saw anything noteworthy. At least from an xray perspective, his back & neck are in perfect health. We did films from poll to tail with both head up and head down views.

It is quite possible that he has my number. I am not always the bravest of riders for as much as I prefer the slightly spicy green horses. I fully admit that when he balks and bucks that I get nervous.

I would like to think that it is not my riding that is causing this, but I suppose I can’t rule it out. I am not aware that I am catching him in the mouth or banging down on his back, but it’s always a possibility. My riding has not changed much in the past couple years(besides frequency) so I would have thought it would’ve caused an issue before now.

I’m going to ride him again tonight(longing before) and will set up my phone to see if I can get some video.

#12

Have you looked lower, as in, front hooves? I only bring this up because my 8 yr old gelding sounds just like yours - well not now but what was happening before present day. Balky at the trot transition…and once he got going he’d sort of click in and it would be over and done with. I had a bunch of people tell me he was just being naughty- had saddle, back, teeth, SI etc looked at. Chiro and massage releases. Really thought we had an SI issue that got tons better with a course of robaxin and bute.

Coming off the meds he had got super stuck and balky - to the point where I couldn’t even take a light contact. I could get him to go if I threw the reins at him and did the cowboy ride, but that is it. Called the vet to address this- had an appt set up for today…but then things changed.

He had been intermittently lame up front - which started off looking like really tight in the shoulder, and intermittent enough a step here or there, that it looked like maybe he bruised his hoof or something in turnout - stuff a chiro or massage session would work out, and honestly nothing I brought up to the vet the first time 'round, and when we did the initial lameness exam he was sound up front that day. But it has progressively gotten more consistent. Now he’s low grade lame in front - consistently. No rider, lame on the longe, both directions, without tack. Our vet is coming out today for that previously scheduled SI appointment, but now we’re looking at the front- to take some films and do whatever other diagnostics are necessary. I have my suspicions but waiting for the formal diagnosis.

Just a thought - these cases can be really tricky and absolutely no fun :frowning: I feel for you!

1 Like
#13

I wasn’t necessarily thinking PSSM, but yes mild tying up. @Melyni has done research around magnesium, and I believe the published paper I saw was one she wrote which discussed magnesium relieving symptoms of tying up in thoroughbreds. I can’t find the paper right now, and only accidentally found it when looking for information on magnesium for myself - but it drove me to try Mg on my OTTB. For a long time I had been trying to figure out why every time he had a day or more off he would start developing pissy face, and also why he had more muscle tightness and soreness than normal. In him, magnesium supplementation immediately made a difference (within about three days.) There have been other issues we’ve worked as well, including both ulcers and hooves, but as far as muscle tightness and sucking back from it Mg made a HUGE difference. It also made it so he could buck REALLY hard, so be cautious in that regard if you use it. There are some excellent supplements out there, and they are pretty reasonable in price.

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#14

This may not be helpful, but my younger horse has a hair trigger ejectors seat that was traced back to a pinched nerve. The saddle was pinching a nerve against his shoulder blades. He would get very anxious and balky when the saddle got too close to the pinch point, and if I didn’t listen to him he would explode.

The reason I’m sharing is that you said he is better with the TSF girth (which allows your saddle to sit further back) and worse after you tighten the girth (which will pull the saddle forward on horses with a forward girth groove and/or laid back shoulder).

Mine has gotten much less worried about the possibility of getting pinched, but he will still let me know if the saddle is too far forward. If I dismount and fix it he is totally fine. I use all the tricks to keep his saddle back, including a crupper.

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#15

If the girth, or buckles is pressing on the vagus nerve it can cause just such symptoms. Pinching of the vagus nerve can cause a horse to be unable to use his hind legs, it can even cause a horse to lay down.

Can you try a different length girth and not so tight?

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#16

It definitely sounds like a pain response still. I think ruling out all of the foregoing suggestions (I realize you are kind of done with the veterinary expense for a while…) makes sense first. Then, if you rule them all out and he is still offering the behavior, I would say he’s got your number.

I had an OTTB not long ago that was 4 when he came off the track. I gave him six months to decompress, then started riding him. I was told by a trainer friend at the track that the reason the horse was no longer running (he was blazing fast, a winner just about every time out and cost his owner nearly $100k at a 2 year old sale) wasn’t because of a bowed tendon (which I nor my vet ever found evidence of) but because no jockey at the track would ride this horse anymore. Apparently, they could exercise and/or race him, but just as soon as he was done and trotting back to the paddock, he would stop/rear/pivot/bolt off in the other direction. He put every single jockey and a few from out of state on the ground at least once. They gelded him thinking that would fix the problem. It didn’t. So I got him. He gave a great honeymoon period for about 60 days. Even took him to a show and got some nice TL scores on him. Then, he started it up again. I had 2 different trainers get on him for me and he did it to them too. (This was also after exhausting every conceivable physical cause for it.) I finally sold him to someone who was sure she could make an eventer out of him. To my knowledge he’s still standing in a pasture.

They are rare, but there are some horses who just don’t want to work. Once they learn they can get you off or get out of work with certain behaviors, those behaviors can be extremely difficult if not impossible to correct.

Again, from your detailed posts, I have to think your horse is still experiencing pain somewhere and he’s telling you the only way he knows how. But if all else fails, maybe he’s just not that into being ridden.

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#17

Have you thought about an animal communicator? I’ve used a couple. They seem to be more right more often then the vets. Good luck

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#18

If he is sound and that is confirmed by a vet…with an anxious OTTB I would suspect anxiety issues are causing this behavior. Have you ever done any desensitizing, destination addiction or separation anxiety training with your guy?

This is in reference to rearing but I suspect your horse has the same issue.
[URL=“https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Bmp9Ky1ClMU”]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Bmp9Ky1ClMU

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uy-fHIpE52w

https://youtu.be/DLSiivYYizY

Warwick Schiller has excellent training videos on the process to teach a horse coping skills

#19

It sounds like pain, somewhere, to me. The fact that he’s great on the longe without a rider and this behavior only emerges with a rider is what makes me think that.

You could try a couple of things. Ask another rider, or your trainer, to ride him and see if you get a similar response.

You might also try a completely different saddle (not one of the ones you’ve been using on him), and see how it goes.

You could also try giving him some bute several hours before riding him, and then ride, and see how he responds.

Ultimately, even if you become convinced that this is a pain issue, the problem of identifying what the source of the pain might be remains.

Some simpler things to rule out if you haven’t already: maybe post some pictures of his feet. Sometimes long toes and underrun heels and create body soreness and pain.

Ask the vet about the possibility of the horse being selenium deficient; selenium deficiency can cause muscle issues.

Good luck.

3 Likes
#20

So, I have one like this. A new horse that I spent a month working with him on these behaviors to no avail. Luckily my guy wouldn’t buck or be dangerous, just refuse to go forward and when you apply pressure, he would go backwards (as in back up, not rear). We would back all over the farm! Then once you rode him through it, he was fine, unless you let him get behind the leg or stop, then he’d slam on breaks again. I did the vet, saddle, X-ray, blah blah blah but couldn’t find anything.

I sent him to a very good trainer and he had the same problem with him. The trainer also suspected a physical issue and also had him vetted, only to find nothing. After a month of battle and some strong arming on the trainers behalf, he finally earned this horses respect and he has been fine ever since. Fast forward 3 months and he looks incredible, is working at 4th level and lets the trainer, assistant and working student ride him with no issue.

Unfortunately, this behavior is deeply ingrained him at this point and he tries it on any new rider or any rider he senses weakness in. I imagine it did start as a pain response but now he knows it’s a great evasion and knows how to take advantage of that.

Not it sure if that is any help, just an experience I’m going through at the moment!

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