Bullies in the Horse Business

[Pennywell_Bay]

[QUOTE=OverandOnward;8781467]
We have an idea in our culture that Interventions are part of being a friend, when someone is profoundly dysfunctional. Including our employer, employee, family member, barn manager, or even trainer, etc. We think we can have a moment of reality-TV and fix their behavior.

Step back and assess - is this person truly, physically, trapped in the situation? Addicts and those who are financially dependent on abusers, or physically controlled by abusers, may well be trapped by forces beyond their control, to varying extents. Such truly unfortunate situations are in no way on a par with troubled people who are more addicted to drama than anything else.

There are many first-world problems where the only barrier to ‘out’ is themselves. The door is wide open for their exit at will. Their friends and family encourage them to leave, and would be delighted and supportive if they would go. But they stay and stay.

What is needed is qualified professional help - in both types of situations. Amateur interventions need to have low expectations of results.

It is very hard to leave behind some ‘friends’ who give the veneer of being good, nice people. But if their friendship is based on an enabling relationship, that isn’t really a friendship at all.

In other words OP … from your end of things, the issue is not the over-bearing trainer. You need to ask yourself why you keep listening and being used in the same way, over and over, when there are saner, more supportive people in your life. That’s not meant as a criticism, as you are undoubtedly a genuinely good person who goes out of their way to make something better for others (or try to). It’s just that your efforts would be more appreciated, and likely do more good, elsewhere. :)[/QUOTE]

My Interventions reference was tongue-in-cheek, I can’t tell if I am being chastised or not.

[Beentheredonethat]

[QUOTE=Palm Beach;8780946]
You can’t save them all.[/QUOTE]

And this is it. My lesson to learn in life. Hey, I’m getting better. I cut them off.

Some really good ideas here, and it all makes sense. I guess this is everyone in life, and as with many things, magnified in horses. It’s just hard for me to get how people can think this way, and I guess that’s a good thing. For my reasoning, I think of it as an addiction, like women going back to men that hit them and defending it, defending drug users or alcoholics, etc. It is an addiction to support addicts.

Too bad some people had to jump in and act like these people I’m mentioning. But I guess it proves the point. There are bullies everywhere.

[Beck]

What Scribbler said.

Something in the situation/relationship fills a strong need. Don’t expect it to make sense.

[Inclined]

[QUOTE=Pennywell Bay;8781511]
Thank you. No one accepts my offer so I may have to try “We have margaritas” or for the COTH “popcorn and wine”[/QUOTE]

Oh no, please don’t. I smile everytime I see your signature. (I have a cookie weakness.)

[SendenHorse]

[QUOTE=Beentheredonethat;8781614]
And this is it. My lesson to learn in life. Hey, I’m getting better. I cut them off.

Some really good ideas here, and it all makes sense. I guess this is everyone in life, and as with many things, magnified in horses. It’s just hard for me to get how people can think this way, and I guess that’s a good thing.

Too bad some people had to jump in and act like these people I’m mentioning. But I guess it proves the point. There are bullies everywhere.[/QUOTE]

Not really, nope.

So you see if you use the correct definition of bullying you will see the error in your assumptions. It’s really too bad that everyone is being called a bully, where as real bullying is severe and traumatic. I wouldn’t really go around crying wolf if I were you. It takes away focus from a real issue. It’s like everyone who is sad is not depressed.
I tend to not fall for your perseona here, so if that makes me a bully fine. I don’t play those little games you like to dish out. This is about education and learning, not cliques like you and Manni have.

People really over-use the word bullying and it’s sort of annoying.

n. pl. bul·lies1. A person who is habitually cruel or overbearing, especially to smaller or weaker people.

[Beentheredonethat]

Senden–Perhaps you should stop the stalking and attacking and try to talk about the topic. The PMs are going around about your constant personal attacks.

And, yes, you do fit that definition.

Can you actually contribute to the discussion, or must you continue with personal attacks?

[SendenHorse]

[QUOTE=Beentheredonethat;8781674]
Senden–Perhaps you should stop the stalking and attacking and try to talk about the topic. The PMs are going around about your constant personal attacks.

And, yes, you do fit that definition.

Can you actually contribute to the discussion, or must you continue with personal attacks?[/QUOTE]

Funny, I get a lot of PMs about you.

What exactly is an attack here, really? You don’t like that i Don’t like you. Why does that bother you so much?

This is a horse board, with horse women, and a lot of us are type A neuotic dressage riders who nit pick every circle.

you expect things to go swimmingly?

Ha, you need to adjust your expectations!

I happen to think you are using the terms wrong, and I still do.

Pointing out LOGIC is not being a bully. Being a bully is humiliating, calling names, and tearing someone down.

What you have with me is normal discourse, not seeing eye to eye. Not every poster is going to like another poster. This isn’t a problem to me.

Its called real life.

Let’s save bullying for the actual cases, and help those people. It sucks. Please don’t make normal stuff into bullying. It really detracts from real bullying. That is my reason for posting.

And yes, this relates to your post. Don’t over-blow everything, but be smart about your boundaries. the way you over-react here seems to be also how you over-react there.

I have very little drama in my real life, horse life, and on here. There is a reason for that.

[Sansena]

Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga CHOoo CHOoo!!!

[SendenHorse]

[QUOTE=Sansena;8781750]
Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga CHOoo CHOoo!!![/QUOTE]

Hey if I have to play this round you have to at least compensate me with some wineIt is Friday and almost 5 o-clock.

[B]That is how I suggest we all deal with horse women.

Drink.[/B]

Or else we cry in our pillows. People don’t last if they get all bent out of shape about every little thing. That is my advice to OP.

There is a movement in some Eastern judo, I think, where you draw strength by pushing into the opponent and using their energy against them. So learn how to turn situations around by having good communication, not gossiping, and really listening. I have learned that in 99% of the BO/BM misunderstanding it can be traced back to not feeling valued.

That is why I think these threads go downhill, there is no context. People read into it all kinds of crap that isn’t true. Stop doing that here, and IRL.

Most people don’t care about you as much as you like to think they do. This sounds flippant, but it really helped me with my show nerves.

You liking or not liking my posts doesn’t mean anything to me, so I suggest you take a long look at your over-reactions. Really, I mean that as a friend. I used to do that too. Why the triggers? I feel bad for you since i used to make myself all stressy.

Then I had a lot of bad shit happen and realize life is too short. Horse drama doesn’t mean anything to me. It’s just background static and I do my best to mitigate when I have to be involved.

That is why I posted, it was actually to try to help you. But you don’t want to see that. Sorry.

I hope you never meet a true bully. You couldn’t take it. it hurts, a lot.

[Pennywell_Bay]

[QUOTE=Inclined;8781664]
Oh no, please don’t. I smile everytime I see your signature. (I have a cookie weakness.) :D[/QUOTE]

Cookies for everyone!! (especially the bullies, almost everyone likes a cookie)

[evenstar]

[QUOTE=Pennywell Bay;8781861]
Cookies for everyone!! (especially the bullies, almost everyone likes a cookie)[/QUOTE]

Cool!
I need a cookie after the last few posts. But since all I have is beer, I’ll have one of those instead.

[Manni01]

[QUOTE=SendenHorse;8781686]
Funny, I get a lot of PMs about you.

What exactly is an attack here, really? You don’t like that i Don’t like you. Why does that bother you so much?

This is a horse board, with horse women, and a lot of us are type A neuotic dressage riders who nit pick every circle.

you expect things to go swimmingly?

Ha, you need to adjust your expectations!

I happen to think you are using the terms wrong, and I still do.

Pointing out LOGIC is not being a bully. Being a bully is humiliating, calling names, and tearing someone down.

What you have with me is normal discourse, not seeing eye to eye. Not every poster is going to like another poster. This isn’t a problem to me.

Its called real life.

Let’s save bullying for the actual cases, and help those people. It sucks. Please don’t make normal stuff into bullying. It really detracts from real bullying. That is my reason for posting.

And yes, this relates to your post. Don’t over-blow everything, but be smart about your boundaries. the way you over-react here seems to be also how you over-react there.

I have very little drama in my real life, horse life, and on here. There is a reason for that.[/QUOTE]

My personal opinion… and I guess it is kind of fitting for this thread. You are a very classical bully.
Remember the poor Princessfluffybritches??? She was a nice person although she might not be the dressage expert and you did everything to shut her down and make her feel bad. My question is why??? And you have a great talent to find the mean spots in everything. Princessfluffybritches is only one example, I have observed that so many times now with other people. You are really great in that. I thought one rule on this board is to be polite to each other??
Most recently you were the one who brought a mean streak into my thread (I can live with it, but it classifies you as a bully for me) and after you didnt find much support you even pulled up the old thread about the pony again, just to show how bad I am.
And I dont even want to talk about your PM to me.
And you wrote that you dont like BTDT. So that the reason that you use your talents to be a little mean against her when she is posting. As I said before that is something you are very good in doing. I feel sorry for you, beeing a Bully is nothing nice…

[Pennywell_Bay]

[QUOTE=Manni01;8781885]
My personal opinion… and I guess it is kind of fitting for this thread. You are a very classical bully.
Remember the poor Princessfluffybritches??? She was a nice person although she might not be the dressage expert and you did everything to shut her down and make her feel bad. My question is why??? And you have a great talent to find the mean spots in everything. Princessfluffybritches is only one example, I have observed that so many times now with other people. You are really great in that. I thought one rule on this board is to be polite to each other??
Most recently you were the one who brought a mean streak into my thread (I can live with it, but it classifies you as a bully for me) and after you didnt find much support you even pulled up the old thread about the pony again, just to show how bad I am.
And I dont even want to talk about your PM to me.
And you wrote that you dont like BTDT. So that the reason that you use your talents to be a little mean against her when she is posting. As I said before that is something you are very good in doing. I feel sorry for you, beeing a Bully is nothing nice…[/QUOTE]

So I don’t always agree with SedenHorse, but I wouldn’t classify her/him as a bully. Not that anyone cares, but here is why:

1. PFB thread- SH was asking questions, I recall that thread. PFB wasn’t being exceptionally clear on a dressage thread about hands on the pommel etc among other things. SH was in discussion and asking for clarification. Calling someone out on the spot certainly isn’t comfortable, but it doesn’t equal a bully.

2. No offense intended- a lot of people bring up the pony thread, I don’t think the equals a bully per say. A lot of people will quip “bring out the guac” in reference to the thread. People bring up the Blue Saddle. It certainly may be uncomfortable for you, but that thread is a COTH legend.

3. SH is pretty blunt and to the point and perhaps quick to disagree. Having an opinion (that is different from mine or yours) doesn’t make one a bully. Not liking someone because they disagreed with you or were perhaps mean to you (your perception) does not necessarily make them a bully.

4. I do agree there can be a pack mentality on bulletin boards, hidden behind screens. I think some of us have opinions of people on the internet that may not reflect who they are in real life.

5. This isn’t meant to be a slam, but I was wondering if you would join in on a BTDT thread.

Everyone has their own level of comfort. Just because someone makes us uncomfortable or isn’t warm and fuzzy doesn’t make them a bully. I can think of a few COTHers who are bullies on the internet and I have the misfortune of knowing them in person and are bullies in real life.

I don’t know SH, I don’t always agree with SH. I do read the posts, as I think SH has a lot of insight to share. SH may be brusque, but not everyone has to be as warm and fuzzy as I or you. I think Manni always tries to be kind and thoughtful in responses (and I don’t always agree with Manni, either).

[Manni01]

Pennywell Bay I think there is a difference between being blunt and being mean and IMO SH crossed the border "
Pointing out LOGIC is not being a bully. Being a bully is humiliating, calling names, and tearing someone down. ". I cited what SH defined as being a bully and that’s what SH did to PFB. She sent me several PM and was really desperate. Yes she was no expert but is it necessary to prove her that she was an idiot?? That’s what SH did :(. And I don’t mind at all if people cite the pony thread. I think it’s nice that it is famous. SH however pulled it up at a very specific moment (after she sent me the PM) so I think she did it for a purpose.
And a discussion board cannot exist if everybody has the same opinion. But it is nice that you said I try to be kind ( because I really try) and I hope you meant it serious.

[Beentheredonethat]

[QUOTE=atr;8781193]
When I watch the weird stuff like this that goes on in my local horse community I think it’s almost cult-like.

People get sucked into a “team” thing, with the trainer being the “team leader.” They are often relatively new to the sport at the start of this and believe that this is the “one true way” and they are scared to face life out there in the big wide world without their team members.

Me? I’m a difficult client because I am knowledgeable and independent and the thought of “being on a team” gives me hives.[/QUOTE]

Getting back to the topic, this I think is really true. What bothers me most about it in the horse community (though I suppose it applies to most things) is that the most naive people get sucked into it and never learn enough to know another way, and then it does become a cult, a way of life.

Besides being really sad, it’s really dangerous to stay naive in the horse world. The one guy I’m referring to doesn’t have one client who can do anything beyond walking the horse to the arena, lunging it, riding a bit in a big curb, and then putting it back. When something happens (which always does at a barn) and some horse got loose, he actually yelled at his clients to get off their horses! Super dangerous to be dismounting a distracted horse.

[Highflyer]

[QUOTE=Beentheredonethat;8782027]
Getting back to the topic, this I think is really true. What bothers me most about it in the horse community (though I suppose it applies to most things) is that the most naive people get sucked into it and never learn enough to know another way, and then it does become a cult, a way of life.

Besides being really sad, it’s really dangerous to stay naive in the horse world. The one guy I’m referring to doesn’t have one client who can do anything beyond walking the horse to the arena, lunging it, riding a bit in a big curb, and then putting it back. When something happens (which always does at a barn) and some horse got loose, he actually yelled at his clients to get off their horses! Super dangerous to be dismounting a distracted horse.[/QUOTE]

Actually I grew up in pony club and this is what I was taught as well.

[SillyHorse]

Come to the dark side, we have cookies

[QUOTE=trubandloki;8781402]
Pennywell, I totally love your signature.[/QUOTE]

@Pennywell Bay;8781511

Thank you. No one accepts my offer so I may have to try “We have margaritas” or for the COTH “popcorn and wine”

I tried, but it was so dark I couldn’t see you. I really wanted a cookie. But a margarita would be just fine.

[csaper58]

[QUOTE=Beentheredonethat;8780734]
It was fascinating to watch her completely screw some people. She would get them to fork over $600/$1000 a month for nothing. She would never give them lessons, train their horses, anything. If they complained or said anything, she would vary between flattery, screaming, crying, threatening, etc. [/QUOTE]

Sadly, This has been going on since forever.

As Jim Jones showed us, charisma is a very treacherous quality, and a lot of people can be led to drink the Kool-Aid.

P.S. Damn you Pennywell Bay!!! All this talk of cookies made me go and open the box I hid in the back of the pantry.

[Pennywell_Bay]

[QUOTE=csaper58;8782333]

P.S. Damn you Pennywell Bay!!! All this talk of cookies made me go and open the box I hid in the back of the pantry. :D[/QUOTE]

Total derail. True Confessions Time.

I am Pennywell Bay and I am an addict.

Preface: I run, eat healthy (for the majority) and try hard to be in shape. My sig line:

I bought a CASE of Thin Mint Girl Scout Cookies in March- April, whenever those little devils are peddling their wares. I keep the case of cookies in my office at work because I work from home 90% of the time.

I can’t keep them at home because I’d eat them and have to share with my family. No- I don’t share them with coworkers and secretly eat them. Yes, I have BOXES and BOXES left. I have not counted.

There is my shame

[Daisyesq]

Barn Bullies - I am adult re-rider who rode and cleaned stalls to work off board during my childhood. LIke many, I stopped riding for a lot of years while I started a career.

As an adult, I started taking lessons on the weekends and eventually bought a horse and boarded it with first adult trainer, Trainer #1. I tolerated some bad behavior in my past from the Trainer #1, because I really didn’t know what other trainers and what other boarding facilities were in my area. I was seriously dependent on trainer #1 for everything “horse related” in my life. Trainer #1 bad-mouthed other trainers in a spectacular way, so even if I knew that she embellished her stories, I believed the core nugget: that she was a good horsewoman while everyone else was not putting the horse first. She didn’t yell or abuse me, but instead just kept me in the dark, I was getting all my information from her, and thinking that I was in the club or something.

When I finally met some new people and opportunities, I had the ability and knowledge to leave the first barn. Seriously, I would NOT have even known how to select a professional horse shipper to get anywhere else, because Trainer #1 had helped me purchase horse #1, taught me how to do most horse-related things (other than I could remember from pony club) and because she trailered us anywhere we needed to go!

Now, I am at a wonderful new barn. But still, I be sure to stay an independent student as much as possible. At least once a year, I take my horse outside the barn to a clinic or elsewhere for a weekend or a week, of my own selection. I love my regular Trainer, but still I know I’m the client, and I know where to find lots of other alternatives who also have good care/good training. Lesson learned.