I wouldn’t call this bullying. To me it is bad business practices being enabled by people with no spine. I think in the horse business people forget that the trainer works for them, not the other way around.
I had an opportunity to ride in a George MOrris clinic once and turned it down. A friend was appalled because it was “GEORGE MORRIS”. I told her that I found his teaching style to be abusive and I wasn’t going to pay for that.
All this stuff lies on a spectrum of behavior. Different people have different styles of teaching and learning, if we’re talking about instruction. The teacher AND student have to find that “balance point” between negative and positive behaviors. As a flight student I got chewed on lots, when I deserved it. A few instructors were natural “screamers” and I didn’t learn well with them. But I had to learn from them as best I could if I wanted to succeed. As a flight instructor I remembered that and never screamed. Even when the student might have deserved it. But I was very good at “quiet ass chewing” in both the cockpit and the debrief. I look for my model, quiet competence, in instructors and/or trainers I employ.
The trainer must also demonstrate progress in training. If I send a horse out for training I will visit during that time and want to see progress towards the goals that the trainer and I agree upon. Being a bit OC, I will give the trainer a written list of what I want to do. We then discuss the list and what the trainer can do in the time period we allot. Sometimes the list gets pared, in a few cases it got extended. Rarely did I end up terminating the project to lack of progress. I suspect that is because I’m OC enough to research trainers before I engage their services! 
Harsh words do not a bully make. Harsh words can be very appropriate depending on circumstances. But if all a body can do is speak harsh words it’s unlikely they will be successful in the long term (but there are cases to the contrary, if vanishingly rare).
Being a believer in basic “free will” I’ve not much sympathy for someone who stays in a “bullying” relationship if they are not required by law to do so. If a person engages a professional and they find the conduct of the professional inappropriate then they ought to take their horse and their money and go elsewhere. This may have consequences and those consequences may be negative. But that’s just life in the rather small equestrian world. And in the larger world, too.
G.
[QUOTE=Pennywell Bay;8781522]
My Interventions reference was tongue-in-cheek, I can’t tell if I am being chastised or not.[/QUOTE]
Sorry should have clarified the remarks weren’t directed at you, directly. You made good points. Just made some general remarks.
“Harsh words do not a bully make” I agree, I think the INTENT of the words is the issue.
If the INTENT of harsh words is to make another smarter, or safer, or more aware, etc. then I would not consider that bullying.
But if the INTENT of harsh words (or even benign words) is to make another want to ‘give up’, or to emotionally or mentally weaken another, that is bullying.
I do think that Bullies, just like other types of Predators, have an innate sense that allows them to successfully identify potential victims.
[QUOTE=OverandOnward;8782931]
Sorry should have clarified the remarks weren’t directed at you, directly. You made good points. Just made some general remarks. :)[/QUOTE]
and I agree with them. I don’t find addictions funny, just FYI. It can be a hot topic and I don’t mean to offend anyone.
[QUOTE=csaper58;8782994]
“Harsh words do not a bully make” I agree, I think the INTENT of the words is the issue.
If the INTENT of harsh words is to make another smarter, or safer, or more aware, etc. then I would not consider that bullying.
But if the INTENT of harsh words (or even benign words) is to make another want to ‘give up’, or to emotionally or mentally weaken another, that is bullying.
I do think that Bullies, just like other types of Predators, have an innate sense that allows them to successfully identify potential victims.[/QUOTE]
Maybe so and maybe not.
In face to face conversation where you have body language and other cues then trying to divine “intent” has a reasonable chance of success. In electronic communication where there is nothing but a stream of electrons? Not so much.
I’ve always been a bit skeptical about the whole “internet bullying” thing. If someone has no power to harm you but can only make you feel bad then is that “bullying?” When somebody says, “give me your lunch money or I’ll get you after school” then you’ve got bullying. When a group of mean children taunt one or more other children then that’s bullying. When an adult person uses a superior economic or legal position to humiliate another who cannot effectively respond then that’s bullying. But an anonymous person on a public forum saying bad things about another anonymous person on that same forum? That one is hard to put into the “bullying” category.
G.
[QUOTE=Pennywell Bay;8782407]
Total derail. True Confessions Time.
I am Pennywell Bay and I am an addict.
Preface: I run, eat healthy (for the majority) and try hard to be in shape. My sig line:
I bought a CASE of Thin Mint Girl Scout Cookies in March- April, whenever those little devils are peddling their wares. I keep the case of cookies in my office at work because I work from home 90% of the time.
I can’t keep them at home because I’d eat them and have to share with my family. No- I don’t share them with coworkers and secretly eat them. Yes, I have BOXES and BOXES left. I have not counted.
There is my shame :)[/QUOTE] Can I be your frieeeeend? Where’s your work and that stash of thin mint cookies?
I guess I am naive. I always knew there were good trainers and trainers who kind of ripped people off. I just have never seen anything like this.
The reason I am calling these cases bullies is because it fits these two trainers. They literally manipulate and abuse people by doing the mental manipulation you see in abusers, just not the physical level. If you think of a man abusing his wife and him calling her names and hitting her, and she goes back to him because he says things to say he doesn’t mean it, loves her, etc., and then it happens again. This is what I see with these people.
The fear I saw in the one woman’s eyes as I asked her why she kept on paying really hit me. It was fear. The other one may be a mental case. He daughter left the abusive situation and is really upset with her mom.
It’s just sad. This may hit me harder than other people because of the situation I grew up in and what happened to my mom. It’s hard for me to understand how people can be so manipulated in these situations when I can barely/not really understand it in my family.
[QUOTE=ReSomething;8783100]
Can I be your frieeeeend? Where’s your work and that stash of thin mint cookies?[/QUOTE]
I was kind of hoping there might be some caramel delites hidden away somewhere, too.
[QUOTE=Beentheredonethat;8783225]
I guess I am naive. I always knew there were good trainers and trainers who kind of ripped people off. I just have never seen anything like this.
The reason I am calling these cases bullies is because it fits these two trainers. They literally manipulate and abuse people by doing the mental manipulation you see in abusers, just not the physical level. If you think of a man abusing his wife and him calling her names and hitting her, and she goes back to him because he says things to say he doesn’t mean it, loves her, etc., and then it happens again. This is what I see with these people.
The fear I saw in the one woman’s eyes as I asked her why she kept on paying really hit me. It was fear. The other one may be a mental case. He daughter left the abusive situation and is really upset with her mom.
It’s just sad. This may hit me harder than other people because of the situation I grew up in and what happened to my mom. It’s hard for me to understand how people can be so manipulated in these situations when I can barely/not really understand it in my family.[/QUOTE]
Being emotionally healthy is hard, sometimes scary, work. For some people, the bad they know is so much easier to accept than the good that they don’t know. Breaking away from abusive/codependent relationships requires a lot of honesty, and when a person has spent their entire lives pretending (to avoid pain), sometimes that leap seems to great to make. It’s definitely worth it, though!
[QUOTE=Guilherme;8783039]
Maybe so and maybe not.
In face to face conversation where you have body language and other cues then trying to divine “intent” has a reasonable chance of success. In electronic communication where there is nothing but a stream of electrons? Not so much.
I’ve always been a bit skeptical about the whole “internet bullying” thing. If someone has no power to harm you but can only make you feel bad then is that “bullying?” When somebody says, “give me your lunch money or I’ll get you after school” then you’ve got bullying. When a group of mean children taunt one or more other children then that’s bullying. When an adult person uses a superior economic or legal position to humiliate another who cannot effectively respond then that’s bullying. But an anonymous person on a public forum saying bad things about another anonymous person on that same forum? That one is hard to put into the “bullying” category.
G.[/QUOTE]
People feel what they feel.
It may not be what you would feel in the same circumstances but it is what they feel.
We each define what terms like Bullying, Abuse, Harassment, Love mean to us. Our definitions overlap with the definitions of others, but rarely are they exactly the same
That does not mean that only the areas in agreement are real.
Some people feel so much more, so much more deeply, they take their lives because of it.
That is pretty damn real.
[QUOTE=csaper58;8783323]
People feel what they feel.
It may not be what you would feel in the same circumstances but it is what they feel.
We each define what terms like Bullying, Abuse, Harassment, Love mean to us. Our definitions overlap with the definitions of others, but rarely are they exactly the same
That does not mean that only the areas in agreement are real.
Some people feel so much more, so much more deeply, they take their lives because of it.
That is pretty damn real.[/QUOTE]
So do we define “bullying” by the actions of the “bully” or the reaction of the “victim”?
G.
[QUOTE=Guilherme;8783359]
So do we define “bullying” by the actions of the “bully” or the reaction of the “victim”?
G.[/QUOTE]
Very good question. In the two cases I cited, what would you say?
I think to be more clear, turn the word “bullying” into “abuse.” Is it spousal abuse of a man beats the crap out of a woman and belittles her, and she says she’s not abused? What if she actually likes it? Does she like/accept it because that’s the way some people are, or she’s been taught to? If people are “comfortable” in this abusive situation, can it/is it abusive?
[QUOTE=Beentheredonethat;8783380]
Very good question. In the two cases I cited, what would you say?
I think to be more clear, turn the word “bullying” into “abuse.” Is it spousal abuse of a man beats the crap out of a woman and belittles her, and she says she’s not abused? What if she actually likes it? Does she like/accept it because that’s the way some people are, or she’s been taught to? If people are “comfortable” in this abusive situation, can it/is it abusive?[/QUOTE]
I think the larger issue on this forum is lack of tone. If you were sitting with me you would see that I am actually very nice and very calm. I think that is why we can’t take this forum and it’s interactions into other social realms.
Bullying and abuse are very specific behaviors, with specific intent and consequences.
You called me a bully, sure, but I never did anything to call you a bad person, humiliate or berate you. There is no way you could construct what i say into actions of a true bully. Not liking what i say doesn’t count- the truth hurts sometimes.
I come back to that since just disagreeing and having a hurt feelings is on you and whatever you bring to the table that read into it
Keep reading that till it sinks in, I really think that will help you. I think that is why I keep answering you posts. Something comes out of your posts that makes me want to respond, we butt heads, sure, but I think in a way I’m trying to help you.
If I just agree with you then you never change
I’m half halting you, not beating you with the whip. Big difference. HA!
a·buse
verb
??byo?oz/
Just like beauty is in the eye of the beholder…
Abuse is defined by the receiver. If a man, woman, child, or beast feels abused they were.
Whether that abuse meets the definition of legally actionable abuse is another question.
[QUOTE=Guilherme;8783359]
So do we define “bullying” by the actions of the “bully” or the reaction of the “victim”?
G.[/QUOTE]
This is actually a very important question.
I also find it hard to apply the word “bullying” to any relationship between adults where the parties are not locked into a binding legal relationship (employee/employer, student/teacher, prisoner/guard, wife/husband, etc).
I don’t really think that most boarding, training, or coaching relationships between adults in the horse world have this degree of legal bind, except maybe at the very highest levels, where you would need to “get with the program” to try for the Olympics, or something. But the cases under discussion here are at the causal/incompetent end of the amateur spectrum, as far as I can tell (the horses aren’t getting trained, the owners aren’t riding).
I’ve watched obnoxious behavior in a social context at a barn. It’s interesting how different individuals respond to the same behavior (harsh comments, snickers, escalating to semi-physical intimidation). Some people, on the first incident, say “wow, she’s obnoxious,” ignore her, and she doesn’t escalate. Some people lash back and she doesn’t escalate. Some people define it as “harassment,” meaning they recognize it is meant to be unpleasant, but also that she’s a bit crazy, and aren’t bothered by the occasional snicker. Some people befriend her in a rather grovelling way, so she doesn’t ever turn on them. And some people, adults, really do experience it as bullying. They are distraught, ashamed, humiliated, wonder what they did to bring this on when they are so nice to everyone all the time, and are embarrassed to talk about it or make a formal complaint. And it escalates.
The problem is, the people who really experience it as bullying are ashamed to complain. And the people who experience it as ineffective harassment don’t really have strong grounds to complain, because a big part of how we define bullying these days is about the reaction of the target.
If you want to go back and sue your old high school for not stopping the bullies, you need to make a court case that your life has been ruined, and that you are owed damages for lost potential income, etc. If you want to make the case that someone is bullying you in a current situation, you generally need to perform victimhood: cry, grovel, exaggerate the pain and suffering. Recent cases of internet bullying of teens only got taken seriously when the girls committed suicide. Before that, no one was very interested.
In other words, to make a claim about being bullied, you need to let the bully really hurt you. Otherwise, people will say that it’s not that serious.
I think this is a problem, because to the extent “bullying” is a punishable offence (as it is in schools and workplaces), it should be defined objectively, like other crimes. If my car is stolen, it is a crime whether I am devastated, or whether I laugh it off and happily file an insurance claim. If they catch the thief, his sentence will be the same. Indeed, criminal harassment and stalking in our jurisdiction is objectively defined, but it doesn’t quite fit as a tool against close-in, social-life, harassment.
As far as what people get out of trying to befriend a bully, and putting up with the occasional (or constant) belittling directed at them, too?
Some thoughts.
Weak, anxious people like to be around those they perceive as strong.
Often the weaker person isn’t actually nicer, they are just less assertive. So they enjoy the fact that the stronger person is expressing the same hostility towards the world that they also feel. If it gets directed back at the them from time to time, that’s just the price they pay. You (as the helpful friend) may not know they are actually just as mean inside as the bully, until they turn on you for trying to help them, as the OP found out.
“Bullies” will often spend time cultivating and building up weak or odd people as friends, who maybe don’t have much of a place in the local social network. The “bully” may not challenge them on a lot of nonproductive behavior that the rest of the world would challenge them on. If you don’t want to ride your horse, far better to find a trainer that won’t let you ride, rather than one who will insist you get on now and get over your fear.
Being in constant crisis is also how some people manage their persona to the world. If client can be in constant crisis with trainer, then client has a never-ending source of urgent topics of conversation with her well-meaning friends. Client doesn’t want the problem solved. Rather, she wants the problem to be sustained at a level that lets her make it the center piece of her emotional relationships with other people. Minus the drama surrounding the problem, what would client have to talk about, and how could she get your interested in her life, and how would she know you cared about her, unless she was constantly involving you in her urgent drama?
Also, if you are in constant drama, then you are doing real good by just getting through each day. You are never put to the actual test of finding out what your talent or skills are, that is what your limits are, because circumstances always conspire to never give you a fair chance to work consistently. Therefore, you can always continue to believe in your own potential. I’ve seen this in the horse world, and even more in the arts community. For some people, the central sustaining belief is in their unlimited potential, their hidden talent or genius, and it is more comfortable to create situations where they see themselves as foiled, than to try and fail, or be mediocre.
I also think women are socialized, more than men, to believe that everyone has to like them, or the sky will fall in. Men can tolerate a bit of bluff antipathy, whereas women are more likely to want to placate everyone around them, and to feel a strong sense of failure if they can’t.
Scribbler–Very insightful. There are a lot of reasons why people are the way they are and the way the react.
So, are these two examples I gave examples of people who are bullied or abused, whichever definition you approve of. I’m pretty sure neither would ever admit to those words, or not for long. I think for one of them, the constant crisis situation you mentioned is right on target. I don’t know about the other one. I don’t know her well. The BM was really puzzled by it all, too, and wondering why her husband lets it continue.
Interesting comment about George Morris, whom I do not know at all. I know, at least the way it used to be, some people who gave lessons were very tough and some people don’t like that. I don’t think that’s even close to what I’m talking about. I think being blunt can be a very effective way of teaching. I know I’ve been talked to this way many times in lessons, and while I may not “like” it, what matters most to me is effectiveness. I will take someone who is blunt and to the point over someone who just says “nice” all of the time. I find that useless.
[QUOTE=Beentheredonethat;8783903]
Scribbler–Very insightful. There are a lot of reasons why people are the way they are and the way the react.
So, are these two examples I gave examples of people who are bullied or abused, whichever definition you approve of. I’m pretty sure neither would ever admit to those words, or not for long. I think for one of them, the constant crisis situation you mentioned is right on target. I don’t know about the other one. I don’t know her well. The BM was really puzzled by it all, too, and wondering why her husband lets it continue.
Interesting comment about George Morris, whom I do not know at all. I know, at least the way it used to be, some people who gave lessons were very tough and some people don’t like that. I don’t think that’s even close to what I’m talking about. I think being blunt can be a very effective way of teaching. I know I’ve been talked to this way many times in lessons, and while I may not “like” it, what matters most to me is effectiveness. I will take someone who is blunt and to the point over someone who just says “nice” all of the time. I find that useless.[/QUOTE]
I think one of the definitions of bullying is that it is unwanted, personally-directed, and meant to undermine the target.
If you were in a GM clinic, and he was sugary-sweet nice to everyone else, saying “Good job!!!” after every jump, but he turned on you and called you names and said your horse was ugly, etc., then he would meet the definition of personally-directed and undermining.
But if he is brusque to the point of being flamboyantly critical of everyone, and everyone knows to expect it and isn’t taking it personally, then it becomes part of the game or the culture, and if you don’t like it, you don’t come back.
BTW, I saw GM give a clinic recently at a local horse event, and he was totally normal so maybe he is mellowing.
I don’t learn well when I’m being yelled at, either. It takes me a few minutes to process being yelled at, and I lose focus. I hated phys ed as a child and teen, because the assumption behind teaching children seems to be that they are lazy, and any hesitation is due to being lazy or “bad,” so you have to hurry them along and not let them get away with anything. Whereas an adult I am genuinely trying as hard as I can, and while I want clear, critical, feedback, I don’t like being yelled at. But I also don’t stay with coaches who do this! So I don’t experience it as bullying, just as a reason to move on.
[QUOTE=csaper58;8783828]
Just like beauty is in the eye of the beholder…
Abuse is defined by the receiver. If a man, woman, child, or beast feels abused they were.
So if a person posits that the Earth was created at 6:00 p.m. Saturday, October 23, 4004 BC. (as Bishop Ussher did) and another challenges this by positing the generally accepted “Big Bang Theory” and each takes personal offense at the other’s rejection of their assertion on religious grounds (one as a theist and one as an atheist) we have two instances of “bullying” or “abuse”?
Whether that abuse meets the definition of legally actionable abuse is another question.[/QUOTE]
Applying your definition, when would such “abuse” become legally actionable?
G.
[QUOTE=Guilherme;8783966]
Applying your definition, when would such “abuse” become legally actionable?
G.[/QUOTE]
There are all kinds of legalistic definitions of bullying out there, since it’s a hot topic in schools and other institutions these days. If you are going to expel a kid for bullying, you need a strong definition that sets the parameters for defining when something is and is not bullying. I don’t have the energy to go look these up, but in general they will specify that the “abuse” has to be primarily one-sided, so that an ongoing fight between two kids is not bullying. It has to be unwanted, so that more or less friendly teasing isn’t bullying. And it has to be ongoing, so that one big blow up is not bullying.
So one big debate, no matter how heated, is not bullying.
If the Bishop then hacks the atheist’s home computer, steals his sex tapes, then posts them all over the internet in an attempt to discredit him, this would count as internet harassment, for sure.
If the Bishop starts driving by the atheist’s home and knocking over his garbage cans and shooting an air rifle through his bedroom window, that would be criminal harassment and stalking.
And if the Bishop and the atheist work together, and the Bishop starts making loud derogatory comments in the lunch room (oh, yuck, that’s the stinky atheist sandwhich again) and the atheist runs in tears into the bathroom and doesn’t come out for an hour, well, that’s common or garden school yard bullying.
But one heated, ugly, stupid, internet debate is not bullying. It’s lots of other regrettable things, but it isn’t bullying, per se.
Not every discussion that is uncivil, rude, off topic, or just plain ugly, is bullying. It’s not like “bullying” has to be the catch-all phrase for all bad behavior. There are lots of other ways of behaving badly, beyond bullying. And they may be just as corrosive for public discourse.
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