Bungee Cord ?

[kaluha2]

Thanks everyone for your responses and for putting so much thought into advising me.

My nieces mother is actually my first niece (Kate) and she did ride and have her own horse (hunter) when she was younger, fast forward 35 yrs later her daughter (Liz my 13 yr old niece) now is the rider and owner of the horse in question My sil is the grandmother in this mix and she lives overseas 6 months out of the year every year leaving Kate and Liz my first and second niece alone with this trainer.

When Kate realized my objection to his weight and the bungee she was very quick to show me pictures on the barn wall of the trainer riding showing and winning on her $250,000 hunter. I quickly responded with “that’s nice but a horse is only worth what someone will pay for him.” I asked her why her knowledgeable trainer would use a contraption but she didn’t know. I don’t think she knows there is such a thing as classical riding and teaching a horse to accept the bit or later to go on the bit without contraptions-----I wasn’t about to go there with her because her trainer wins everything so who the hell am I to question.

Liz did say to me that he has a go button but not a whoa button (even though he looked very clam to me (probably because he needs groceries) so I said he does not understand a half-halt. Both looked ant me like I fell from mars and Kate asked if I could teach her that night what that was but the barn was closing in 15 mins and although I have been around the block a few times I could not teach any one any thing in 5—10 mins plus cool out a horse. I told her to just teach him whoa, go, and turn. I was at a loss. i do not teach beginners only advanced or those needing things polished up.

Scribbler and SendenHorse you are right on as are some others.

AKB the horse is at a very upscale barn (not that THAT means Jack Sh*t to me but he is on a feeding program gets shoes regularly and vacs. I told her to up his hay and if he cleans that up throw another flake.

I am sorry to sound so ignorant about the bungee but this is very foreign to me as I started in the classical school and never heard of this bungee thing. We never jumped horses in any thing like it so I’m a bit verklempt.

Now that I know the bungee won’t kill him I can focus on his weight. I am not one to fall over backwards because horse is a tad on the thin side which he is not. He needs weight put on him now.

I’m sitting patiently waiting for my young niece to decide boys are more fun so I told them if sh*t hits the fan (horse becomes obnoxious) or Liz loses interest to put him on a commercial shipper and ship him to the east coast and I’ll put him in the back 40. I don’t know what else to do.

[findeight]

Kind of you to offer to backstop this poor horse if (when) it doesn’t work out. Sounds like she’s being snowed pretty good by this “trainer”. As I suspected, these “trainer people” point at win pictures and drop a few BNT names to support their claims of greatness…heck, put me on a 250k Hunter and I’d be in a fancy win picture too. But you’ll never convince them this one is anything except a household name and they truely believe they are lucky to be in that program.

If they come up with the old “skinny because he’s right off the track”? Reveals a substantial amount of misinformation being fed to them. Most coming out of decent race trainer barns are fit and healthy, not skinny-real horsemen know the difference and 6 weeks in an actual good program run by a qualified individual produces a very obvious difference. Be surprised how many are in fairly good weight even when racing, especially the fuller body type that convert to attractive Hunter types.

Still have a problem with the 17k price right off the track when the going rate is under 4K with the majority 1500-2500. Wonder why it still appears to have no muscle tone if it was a working race horse at purchase…? Did they PPE it? Do I see vet bills on the horizon?

Anyway, all you can do is offer long distance moral support. You could chase down the horses race record on here and who it’s human connections were discreetly via PM. Public record if you have the JC name and/or tatoo#. Might explain that 17k purchase price or the lack of muscle tone and poor condition.

[m_m1]

The horse is really fortunate that you have a back forty to offer.

I very much hope nobody gets hurt during their upcoming education.

[findeight]

[QUOTE=m&m;8830600]
The horse is really fortunate that you have a back forty to offer.

I very much hope nobody gets hurt during their upcoming education.[/QUOTE]

Betting trainer is not going to let that happen…whatever it takes…if you get my drift here. Making very rapid training progress…

[kaluha2]

Drift understood. LOL Yes, Kate started to explain to me that, "Aunt Kaluha2 he IS only off the track 3 months—I immediately shut her down with—"remember I use to gallop these buggers and spent much of my youth behind the barns at different race tracks and then schooled my fair share off the track to go to the show ring. Please don’t tell me the same dribble your trainer fills you with.

findeight you have nailed this whole scenario to a tee but that’s not surprising as I’m sure you have seen this many time too. Just really hits home when it’s a member of the family and a kid.

m&m yes she is fortunate to have someone to bail this horse out when the time comes. A lot of us never had this option and had to make things work out right.

I didn’t ask about a PPE I’m sure the trainer never brought it up. Yes, I was thinking of looking him up but decided I know more now than I care to know.

[Man_in_Black]

When I rode IHSA there was a horse they used in the Open, Int, and sometimes Novice classes that went in a bungee all the time. It was a giant horse that was definitley built on a monday and generally nice to ride, but without the bungee was exceptionally hollow through his back. With the bungee he rounded right up and it made for a “better picture” with anyone riding him.

I did ride my OTTB sometimes in one. He was built uphill and was exceptionally quiet, which made getting any kind of flexion very hard. Draw reins helped, and the bungees helped, but again they’re just a guide/training tool. I can say that in the right setting they probably would help a young horse become more balanced/allow it to stretch down but I’m concerned that the “trainer” is using them that frequently (and also that she picked out this horse for a young kid…but that’s a different story) I agree with one of the previous posters who said that they helped a spooky horse become not spooky. I had also taken lessons on a pony who used to go in one for the same reason. Not sure if it makes them focus?

Anyways, they can be useful, but I think I’d rather ride the back end of a horse to create a soft mouth/back and let the horse naturally stretch down on it’s own than use one on a daily basis.

[RugBug]

I used a neck stretcher/bungee on my WB gelding during rehab. He was spooky and reactive. The bungee slowed that whole process down. Head would go up, he’d hit the restriction of the bungee and self correct. It was vital during rehab when I could not use work to correct any misbehavior. He had a soft mouth and went in a happy mouth mullen mouth very nicely.

I’d much prefer to see someone in a bungee than see them seesawing to get a horses head down…which is often what you see. When a bungee is adjusted fairly loosely, it is self-corrected and quite light…much more so than draw reins. It also encourages down and out more than draw reins, which can lead to BTV.

People do jump with them, usually by putting a neck strap on to keep the straps away from the feet. People also jump in draw reins, so it’s not surprising to see them doing the same in the neck stretcher. That’s not my cup of tea, but if I had to choose, between draw reins and a neck stretcher, I’d most likely choose the neck stretcher unless there was a specific reason to use the draw reins.

It is not some evil device. Sure, you can call it a gadget, but there are plenty of things you can call gadgets that are still very useful in training horses. I’m not sure why side reins are considered okay, but a bungee is not. Both are gadgets (and I actually don’t like side reins as they can encourage leaning). You can teach a horse self carriage with a bungee…not sure why people think you can’t

[dexhol]

I’d be more concerned about the fact that once they put a couple hundred pounds on the fella, the kid will likely not be able to get anywhere near him, let alone ride him. Unless the thinness is intentional for just that reason.
I have found that some of our OTTB’s lose a bit of weight for the first month or two off the track, then gain it back slowly, so that could play a role. But a skinny horse is often a quiet horse, and has a VERY different personality than that same horse at a good weight. I’ve known a few sold as nice quiet “hard keepers” that were quite easy to get weight on and turned into fire breathing dragons once they got the calories they needed.
As an aside, most of our horses directly from the track ranged from free to $1k.

[kaluha2]

I can see that I am coming from a very different place than some when it comes to bungees, draw reins and neck stretchers. But whatever works for you. I choose a different path which works for me as your path seems to work for you too.

Yes dexhol I was not about to tell my sil what a tb off the track goes for as she probably would have lost it. I too am concerned about this horse once he does pick up weight. Mt niece might now be able to control him. She does stick like glue and seems to be a bit of a natural but once he matures gains weight and gets muscled he could be a handful. This trainer seems to be limited in her education/training methods from what I was told.

I explained to my nieces that there is also a very good 3 day eventer in the barn and has his string of horses there across from her horse. I mentioned that when she has some free time she might want to watch him school a few horses on the flat and that while he’s an eventer and she’s into hunters she still could pick up some things from him that her trainer might not be aware of and incorporate his methods into her flat schooling. I’m not sure she quite understood my drift (lol) but later on she might get it. I’m sorry time was so short and only had time for snippets.

I really appreciate everyone educating me on the bungee thing. It’s been interesting. Thanks

[Bogey2]

I don’t think she knows there is such a thing as classical riding and teaching a horse to accept the bit or later to go on the bit without contraptions-----I wasn’t about to go there with her because her trainer wins everything so who the hell am I to question.

I wouldn’t use the word “classical” in this case…I would use the word correct because it’s not just people who call themselves “classical” that find the use of the bungees to be a gadget
I know of a (dressage) barn who has every lesson ride with bungees on the horses…school and personal horses.
What I observed over a couple of years was that the students had a tough time at the shows getting the horses on the bit because they had no understanding of using leg to hand to get the horses round.

[wronglead]

I have used and still use the bungee occasionally.

I am only an amateur, so for me the bungee is a safety net on some of the more rambunctious or young horses.

My mother used to throw my naughty (run-off & rodeo bronc) pony in it and he turned into an angel. It was an effective device for a temporary fix. As pony got older and learned the drill, he was shown and competed without the bungee. But for many years he LIVED in that thing anytime I got in the saddle (also note I jumped nothing but maybe small crossrails with it on, mostly used on the flat).
Now that I train my own, I have used it a few times on the occasional youngster that likes to get strong and bronc when we hack out on the trail. Again, a safety net that really was nothing but a temp fix until horse learned that hacking outside of the arena was not so scary and awful.
I will say, NEVER put a bungee on a known rearer or horse that is at all light in the front end. One time, I (regrettably) recommended the device to a friend and her mare reared out of frustration at the pressure and flipped over backwards, injuring her and the rider severely. I have heard of other similar flipping situations on horses that only know how to rear when they protest new and unforgiving training aids.
I would certainly NEVER pay a trainer to ride in a bungee… I am an experienced but timid and backyard ammy- if I can use the bungee to bandaid my training issues, why pay someone else to do it for me?

But really… If she wants to send him to FL I will totally take her money to ride him in the bungee 24/7 :winkgrin:

[RugBug]

@kaluha2;8833007

I can see that I am coming from a very different place than some when it comes to bungees, draw reins and neck stretchers. But whatever works for you. I choose a different path which works for me as your path seems to work for you too.

I guess I feel we could label bits, spurs, whips, etc as gadgets if we really wanted too. Most people don’t because they don’t have the time or patience to teach a horse to respond properly without those things, but whatever works for them.

A Bungee/neck stretcher (it’s the same thing) is a tool when used in the right circumstances. When used as a crutch to avoid proper training, it’s a gadget. It does sound like your niece’s trainer is using it as a gadget…you’ll know for sure if the horse never moves out of it.

The skinny issue is more pressing, IMO. A thin horse is a compliant horse. They may find it easier to keep him thin to actually figure out how to ride/manage him with weight. That is a real shame and goes beyond gadget to abuse.

[kaluha2]

I use the word classical because that was how I was trained from the early 70’s. I also consider it correct training. I do not consider using bungees and neck stretchers correct by any means but whatever floats someone’s boat. I prefer that my niece learn how to ride correctly as anyone can slap on an auxillary rein take the money and call it good. Why pay someone to teach you how to ride in a way that will need to be corrected later on?

ANY “dressage” barn that uses contraptions is a barn bastardizing correct riding and not one I would write out a check to. Now if all you want to do is go hacking and pop over a 2’ fence have at it. I just don’t see the reasoning behind learning to do something the wrong way and calling it correct. But that’s just me.

And I so agree with you that yes most have a very difficult time trying to get a horse on the bit because----well, let’s face it, they are not being taught to put a horse on the bit. Hence the bungee.

wronglead LOL I hear ya. I love the youngsters too but I have gotten a little old for that now.

Rudbug: Yes the skinny issue is one that keeps me up at night.

[kaluha2]

I use the word classical because that was how I was trained from the early 70’s. I also consider it correct training. I do not consider using bungees and neck stretchers correct by any means but whatever floats someone’s boat. I prefer that my niece learn how to ride correctly as anyone can slap on an auxillary rein take the money and call it good. Why pay someone to teach you how to ride in a way that will need to be corrected later on?

ANY “dressage” barn that uses contraptions is a barn bastardizing correct riding and not one I would write out a check to. Now if all you want to do is go hacking and pop over a 2’ fence have at it. I just don’t see the reasoning behind learning to do something the wrong way and calling it correct. But that’s just me.

And I so agree with you that yes most have a very difficult time trying to get a horse on the bit because----well, let’s face it, they are not being taught to put a horse on the bit. Hence the bungee.

wronglead LOL I hear ya. I love the youngsters too but I have gotten a little old for that now.

Rudbug: Yes the skinny issue is one that keeps me up at night.
Thank you all so much for taking the time to reply and to help me through the bungee thing and also for commenting on the skinny horse issue. I’m trying desperately to not bud in too much but I do plan on it if there is not an improvement in his weight. Thanks again

[fordtraktor]

You have noted that you don’t teach beginners ever. I can see that if you are of the opinion you should never teach anyone something that will have to be corrected later. Beginner trainers teach people all sorts of things that have to be tweaked a bit later because they just aren’t at a level where they can use the more advanced technique.

For example, trying to explain leg to hand and getting a horse on the bit to a person who can’t post the trot yet (or, for that matter, doesn’t have independent hands) is bad instruction. Same thing for teaching nothing but automatic releases to people who can’t jump a crossrail in a secure position. These things are futile at best and very punishing to the horse at worst. A person without steady hands, for example, will just end up ruining the horse’s mouth and the horse still won’t be on the bit. Both will be very frustrated and the horse isn’t going to end up “trained.”

I don’t even own a bungee or draw reins so I’m not the world’s greatest defender of them. But it is not at all clear this rider is at a point in her development where she is ready to be teaching a horse fresh off the track to go on the bit, a task that requires some degree of feel. Some trainers prefer a bungee when they are just starting to teach a horse to give to pressure because they feel like they won’t be fighting with the horse, the horse is “teaching itself” and won’t associate the trainer with the pressure as much. I don’t do that, but I understand the concept and I’m not opposed to it per se.

The weight issue is huge. I hope they are addressing it appropriately. How did the other horses in the barn look? if this was the only skinny one, then I’d be optimistic they are working on it. If they all look poor, I’d be far more likely to intervene.

[findeight]

Think the biggest stumbling block is the Pro trainer using it all or most rides…its 3 months off the track, not three weeks. Closely followed by them paying 17k (plus commission no doubt) for a right off the track horse for a green kid. Not so much using a temporary tool/gimmick/step in a well thought out training process aimed at losing it ASAP. Not my choice, normally, but can understand that.

The weight thing is sort of the gorilla in the room. Three months off the track in a decent program of regular excercise and a sufficient number of forage based calories from hay typically available out there-that would be some form of alfalfa? He wouldn’t be fat but should be blooming by now and well past the tired old BS excuse “He’s skinny because he’s right off the track”, no he’s not.

[raisethebar]

I know people who used these and love them - I have used one myself (do not currently have a need for it) & believe under the right hands, it can be useful. It only gets engaged when the horse lifts its head (if properly fitted) and applies pressure until the horse releases. Then again, I would NEVER use any tool like this for horses who rear or are light in their front end so-to-speak, for anything extremely green (as the horse in the OP sounds).

I have a professional ride my horse for me 1x per week and she asked to use this to help with his change as he would be fighting against himself and allow her to set him up properly… If I didn’t know my horse, his specific weaknesses when it comes to his R to L change, I would say absolutely NO- not in 1 million years, but tis is the rare situation I would allow a professional to ride my horse is a training aid.

There is so much wrong with this situation - I think you are doing the right thing by bringing it to their attention quietly without a huge freak out. I think people will always see someones true colors after a given amount of time. I know there are people out there that will do anything to say they ride with a BNT but all it seems to get them is an empty pocketbook and a horse they can’t ride (lameness issues or the horse not being a good match for them).

Ugh, horses!

[Foxglove6]

Just wanted to chime in. When I rode in England, I rode a very naughty Welsh B with tiny ears. He learned how to duck his head, lay his ears forward, and slip the entire bridle off his face. We put a bungee on as you describe and he would not be able to pull that trick. I have a feeling that it helped him carry himself better and he had less attention for naughty evasions but I couldn’t say for sure. This was over 10 years ago. But the bungees can be used for other things I think.

I agree with others that the weight issue is the biggest problem for this horse. Once he’s healthy, maybe the training will go better. No crystal ball to say for sure if niece will rise to the occasion.