it is possible to disagree with someone without being condescending and nasty. For instance I’d like to say something like this: Now that we have the threat of WWIII looming (if we don’t play our cards right) it appears we need help. We need allies. We need to be FRIENDS with the rest of the world. I wonder if Bush wishes he had been just a little more agreeable a few months ago when he was discussing the Kyoto treaty with Europe. I’m not saying he should have accepted it, but maybe he should have been more like “let’s look into a comprimise” instead of “NO WAY; it’s FLAWED”. Now that’s what I’d like to say, but I fear if I do, that instead of an intelligent discussion or arguement, I’ll get blasted with things like “It’s Clinton’s fault!” or “You shouldn’t critisize the President now!!” OR “Oh YEAH? Well Clinton had his ning-ning licked; what about that?” or “You’re a bleeding heart idiot liberal!” And you know, those kinds of comments put me on the defensive and THEN all I want to do is fight back by blasting Bush. That’s not argument; that’s not debate. And it’s certainly not interesting.
Betsy in MD
You proposed your hypothesis and then analyized it magnificently.
I was most interested in your analysis of the sociology of the area, that is the need for face saving and prestige. I think you were exactly on target when you said the women must stay out. It was the presence of the women I believe ignited the problems in Saudi Arabia.
I look forward to any other suggestions and analysis you can offer and I trust the powers that be are listening too. Of all the reports I have read this is the concise and complete.
I knew they has no respect for us and our power but I didn’t understand why. I now can understand from their perspective how we need to comply with sosme of their personal convictions in order to accomplish our purpose.
The news reports do indicate that someone in Washington is paying attention and following these suggestions for our action. The President has said it could take years and we will go slow and it will be a different war than we have known.
As much as I enjoy reading the varying viewpoints expressed in the this thread, I need a mental health break. Suffice it to say that I’m “calling in sick.”
In the not too distant future I’ll return to be astounded and perplexed by Snowbird’s revisionist history lessons and obsession with the Oral (I mean “Oval”) Office, JumpHigh83’s flair for punctuating each retort with a personal insult, and IlonaE’s unfortunate displays of incivility.
I cannot help but believe that the tone of bitterness and hostility in many of your remarks only succeeds in obscuring your valid contributions to the larger discussion. Why set out to offend those who you would seek to inform and persuade? Wouldn’t calm, well-founded, and rational discourse be a more effective vehicle for your opinions? Why aim to wound and disparage when to do so only belittles your own passionately-held beliefs? Those passionate beliefs - borne of life experience and contemplation - are so much more effectively expressed in the absence of ugliness and ire.
Ironically, I think if we were to meet in person I would probably like all of you despite the differing political and societal paths we are compelled to follow. I have no doubt that at heart we are all good, compassionate people who love and want the best for our country. At the moment, however, I am too overwhelmed by the violence that has been forced upon our nation to willingly subject myself to even more hostility and mean-spirited invective on this thread.
I’ll see you all when I regain my strength, composure, and faith in the essential goodness of mankind. 
Word of advice for the commie soybean ingesters on the BB - venture to a Korean market and buy mung bean jello. With a bit of soy sauce, teeny pinch of sesame oil, sesame seeds, and sliced green onions on top, it’s very delish.
Magnolia, if you’re elected el presidentesse, as the recipient of David Hasselhoff’s saliva (in my hair), I’m eminently qualified to be your vice-presidenteuse.
I just wish someone would tell him there’s an “r” at the end of “terror.” I keep wondering what in the world a “terra” is. 
But a good speech so far, otherwise…
There is an Australian company that created a generator to convert hog waste to electricity. They pump in manure from the lagoons of hog waste, which is inceinerated, and somehow produces energy. They are focusing on NC. I’m not sure how far along their technology is or how effcient it is, but anything that cleans up hog waste and produces power is OK with me!
And it would be good to diversify our energy supply from being so based on fossil fuels. It isn’t just environmental, it’s an economic issue. I am very surprised our gas prices aren’t thru the roof. We are just so dependent on one limited commodity that any kink in the line (ie, friction in the middle east) could darn near bankrupt us and our economy. If we had several viable sources (hemp, manure, solar) being worked on, we’d have a back up. I hear numbers regarding the war - a few billion to airports, a few billion for new vaccines, a few billion for this and that… well, a few billion toward some research on alternative energies would be great to get us off of foreign oil - instead, (and Bill Clinton is as guilty as Bush) we continue to cut funding to alternative energy resource development, while giving way more money to fund oil exploration.
Well, how does this relate to the war? We wouldn’t have to depend on a volatile area for a large portion of our economy. I can’t believe that OPEC hasn’t jacked up the oil prices, and what’s to say that if we spend a bit too much time over there or say the wrong thing or bomb the wrong village that they won’t…
The witchy witch witch of south central NC.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brookes:
Ok, I’m totally confused here, where exactly and when exactly has Bush or anyone in his cabinet mentioned that we are going to bomb Afghanistan? Please enlighten me as I seemed to have missed this important point along the way. Yet many of you are against what you are calling “war” and attacking Afghanistan. Again I ask you, where and when did this information come to light??
All I’ve been hearing is for requests that Afghanistan cooperate with turning over Bin Laden. We’ve asked not invaded or launched an assault. They have said no, so now what should we do. Just let it slide. We did the nice nice thing, well nice nice is over now. Choke up Bin Laden or suffer the consequences. Bush has never mentioned just what those consequences would be.
Why are you assuming that this is what they have in mind? Or do you know something that I don’t?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If you read the non-negotiable requirements Bush made of the Taliban, you will see there is NO WAY they can achieve several of them (turning over all terrorists (Hey you, you look pretty scarey, come with us), opening the camps to inspection (TERRORIST CAMP NEXT EXIT) so by not allowing negotiation, Bush has in fact set the Taliban up to fail so we can begin the attack and say, “See, they COULD’VE done what we asked, but they didn’t, so we bombed them.”
It will be bombs first, then a ground force attack where many of our soldiers will die because 1) they don’t know the territory (think the Red Coats vs the Revolutionary militia; and 2) because we will try to avoid killing ‘civilians’ who will be armed and shooting at our soldiers as snipers from the high ground.
One of the many reasons the Vietnam War did not succeed was because of the network of tunnels the Viet Cong had access to. In Afganistan, it will be hidden caves…
~Kryswyn~
“Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo”
Among the best speeches, in response to the terrorist attacks, that I’ve yet to hear has been from Preston Manning, former leader of the Canadian Alliance, a party not known for its liberal-leanings, situated about 500 yards to the right of center.
Egads people, if I, an agnostic liberal can find inspiration in the words of a right wing politician (whose voice, BTW, ranks among the most annoying of any politician imaginable) those of you who’ve expressed such intolerance for the views of others (and y’all know to whom I’m referring), can surely find a way to debate without such mean-spirited virtiol. 
Excerpt from Preston Manning’s Speech
We have promised our American friends that �our prayers are with them.� But what should be the content of those prayers, for this promise to be more than idle words?
Historically our nations, particularly in times of war and disaster, have sought deliverance from evil and the strength to do good through faith in the justice and grace of God.
My prayer is that the tragedy of September 11, 2001, will lead us to do so again; that our spiritual leaders will speak the truth in love or not at all; and that our political leaders will be given the wisdom to fashion our response to terrorism and its roots in the light of the moral imperatives which this tragedy illuminates.
May we be delivered from the evils of false religion and indiscriminate revenge, inspired to new heights and depths of compassion for all those who suffer, while relentlessly pursuing justice for those who practice terror � so help us God.
Kinda off topic, but I was in my local tack shop today and I thought of a question for this BB:
Have the recent attacks made a difference to any of you in your spending patterns with horse stuff? I’m asking because I had ordered one of the Wintec/Bates gullet sets and went to pick it up. Whereas I would typically purchase a couple of other things (whether I needed them desperately or not), I only bought the gullet set.
I don’t generally change my spending habits due to a world crisis, but something about this one mace me think twice.
Am I alone on this?
I visit Europe frequently - have family and friends there - and they all look pretty wealthy to me, so something is working.
Agreed… of course, the Europeans don’t tend to live in pre-fabricated mini-estates or drive gas-guzzling cars to impress the neighbors.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Have you not read and digested a singular thing that those you so delightedly dismiss as “bleeding hearts” have so eloquently written? How dare you dismiss these intelligent, considerate and educated posters.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I dare to disagree, I dare to understand that these people in the terrorist movement care not a twit for the 7,000 innocent people they murdered. I understand they would have celebrated even more if it was 70,000 or even all of Manhattan. I dare face the reality of the fact that there are people who not going to follow the rules of civility. I can forgive you because you have not survived others equally heinous. Your information is second hand and hearsay but we who feel less concilatory have already been down that road and know it’s a dead-end.
Eloquent writing in the comfort of your warm home and full stomach, is just that, and punctuation or spelling will not solve the problem nor are they a measure of the truth of an idea and an attitude.
These trimmings are no more important than stuffed suits pretending to be civilized.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Make your grand pronouncements under the conceit that somehow, by virtue of your age, you have a greater insight and perspective; proselytize under the mistaken assumption that by virtue of your age you are owed an unearned respect.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Your presumption and not mine. Your insecurity and not mine. I will defend my perspective based on any weapons you choose, logic, history, sociology or even psychology. I do not expect reverence simply because I have aged but because I have lived and because I can offer you first hand knowledge and not that filtered by those who try to manipulate your mind with a distorted history.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I mostly find you self-serving, terribly offensive; and your opinions shameful. You could learn a thing or two from my 90 year old grandmother.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And, I would be pleased to learn from your grandmother, I would enjoy speaking with your grandmother and you might be horrified to know how much we have in common as grandmothers. I am not too old to learn something new. Are you?
My opinions may offend you because they do not agree with yours, but they are not self serving. At my age I think a socialism might be more comfortable than the need to be responsible for my own welfare. In your Brave New World I might have time to go back to my study of the arts, since my creature comforts would be paid for with your paycheck.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Congrats to you Snowbird, you have successfully driven me from this BB. Don’t want to share the virtual airspace with the stubbornly obtuse any longer.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And there you have it, perhaps you will not enjoy sharing your real space with people who disagree with you like these fanatics who believe women should not be seen or educated. So then you just capitulate, appeasement doesn’t work. You go ahead and spend your life working to support us ancient ones in comfort with your taxes. Run away and hide your head in the sand like an ostrich, see if that keeps you safe. What if we all quit? What if we all capitulate? What kind of a world would you expect?
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
Because of our petty bickering and beating up of our leaders they assumed we were all not very intelligent. .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Interesting perspective given the tone of some previous posts . . . hmm.
I kind of like your idea. I think his followers are brainwashed. Like a cult. DMK had a link to an interesting article on Janes and it talked about how Bin Laden gives people wads of cash to go fight their own holy war. Apparently he is also very charismatic (hard to imagine, though from pictures, he hardly appears like a psychopath (though I guess they never look wierd…))
I wonder how much the women support all of this garbage going on? I can not believe that anyone could be so inhumane… Do these men not have any love at all for their mates? I can see not wanting the wife to work, or even wear skimpy clothes, but being shot for walking down the street alone covered head to toe? That is nuts. Seems to me we should have put the Taliban in it’s place when that BS started. I know those women had freedom at some point in history. It must make it that much more awful for them.
The witchy witch witch of south central NC.
NP Fisher-
Are you saying that the rest of the Middle Eastern/Central Asian studies group has left the building, and they didn’t even tell Hobson and me where they were going?
Crap, there goes my A average.
The last time I read this thead there were arguments about WW11 the bottom line etc .Now I am chuckling about BOOBS FOR BOMBS hahahahahaha!I knew that heidi would lighten things up!
Got goosebumps reading it (no TV here). Reading it also let me fantasize that Harrison Ford was giving the speech (ala Tom Clancy’s character Jack Ryan). Sigh
~Kryswyn~
“Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo”
If Bush and the powers that be were as anxious to drop bombs as some are saying, then the mountains of Afganistan would just be dust in the breeze (though since the camps have been dismantaled and the terrorists have melted away into the mountains, it wouldn’t accomplish much). While it takes quite awhile to move a ground force, bombs and missles are faster. Bush seems to be aware that the majority of Afganis are hostages in their own country and I bet that all possible efforts will be made to spare them.
As for turning evidence over to the Taliban, I think that would be delivering it directly to Bin Laden, who would then know what else he needed to hide and how close he is to being caught.
There is no pleasant way out of this; it will be a long, probably bloody, uphill fight. If you think that copy-cat school shootings are horrible, think of all the other terorist organizations out there who have just been inspired. That is why the strikes need to be effective militarilly, diplomatically, and economically. It is time for all nations where human life is valued to work together so that terrorism is no longer an option.
As to a President, I’m glad to follow Bush, who seems to realize that there is wisdom in putting together the best possible team of experts and not trying to make all the hard decisions by yourself. People like Colin Powell know what war is like and will not undertake it lightly.
Thanks for the oportunity to say all that.
I have been struggling with the following question since 9/11/01 and have not been able to come up with an answer.
If one purports to be a good christian, how does one ever justify breaking the commandment - thou shall not kill?
If you agree that it’s o.k. to kill in self-defense-is it a given that you will be forgiven by God or must you repent your actions?
Not trying to incite a riot just very curious
…here on the BB!
Hissing, mudslinging, spitting and downright nastiness here!
And most of you are calling for a peaceful resolution? Ha!
War and hatred have been around since the beginning of time and to have a people belive that peace is the answer to life’s problems, then you have another thing coming.
Look at our nation as a whole. Devorce rates through the roof, road rage, black -vs- white, poor -vs- rich, and so on…
Kinderagrden spats and minor road accidents, I can see peaceful endings to those, but all others…well???
