BUSHvsGORE re:Horse Industry

Hey, if you all want to shoot each other, I’m not going to get in your way. Have at it! Does anyone know where I can get a good deal on a bulletproof vest? How much would it cost to outfit my Civic hatchback like the Popemobile?

In the last couple of weeks, I have noticed a strange public hypnosis going on. The Bush campaign has been capitalizing on Gore’s fudgebrained little fibs by repeating the stock phrases: Gore is a liar, but I am an honest man with integrity. I am an honest man with integrity. I am an honest man.

It’s working marvelously. I now hear man/woman-on-the-street interviews in which people happily say “Gore is a liar. Bush is an honest man with integrity.” As though the latter follows a priori from the former. If you missed it, here’s the structure: Gore lies. Therefore, Bush does not. Surely anyone can see the problem with that argument.

Oh, and a woman interviewed this morning by an NPR reporter remarked that she’s going to vote for Bush because she preferred his answer over Gore’s about what kind of baseball stadium the candidates liked best. She spoke earnestly about it, with the gravity that I would apply to discussing nuclear disarmament treaties or environmental destruction. As someone said earlier in the thread, “This is America,” whatever that means. (“Oh, no! I’ve confused my home country with Finland yet again!”) I’ve really lost interest in the election.

My final remark is about the cult of individualism. Lots of folks believe that they should have the right to not wear a seatbelt, smoke, drink, etc, as long as it doesn’t affect anybody else. But it’s a myth than in modern society you can be purely independent of your neighbors. For instance, the insurance companies have complex statistical models which predict with accuracy how many people will be ejected from their cars in road accidents each month, how many will die from lung cancer, and how many will accidentally kill a friend or their child with their helpful handgun. The insurance companies calculate premiums such that their profits will not be damaged by the costs of caring for these “individualists”. So if you won’t wear your seatbelt, insist on keeping your gun in a shoebox in your closet, smoke like a fiend, and susbscribe to the rugged American individualist way of thinking, then may I suggest you pay your own hospital bills when you crash your car without a seatbelt? Otherwise, you cause my premiums to be artificially inflated. One could say that you are stealing from me. I’d get paid more if my employer didn’t have to fork out so much in insurance premiums. When your kid shoots his friend in the face with your gun, my tax dollars support the ambulance service that comes to scrape up the mess. Unless you live like the Montana Militia, your individualism is riding on my tax dollars. And that’s dishonest. If you want to make an honorable claim to living the individualist life, then the right thing to do is to remove yourself altogether from the social contract.

I’m just going to return to quietly writing blueprints of the public service and suburban-sprawl-prevention programs I’ll institute when I become the benevolent dictator of the US. Warning to all: banning beige houses will be my first official act after the revolution.

[This message has been edited by hobson (edited 10-30-2000).]

Yeah, buy a hand gun; that’ll show 'em .

Sannois, whatever you may believe, the Nazis were not socialists, despite the party name. Nazis are fascists, which is an extreme right-wing form of government. You can verify this in any political science text. In any case…I dislike Al Gore for a variety of reasons, but for someone to see jack-booted thugs lurking behind him is a bit much.

And to all you philosophy students, metaphysics and Heidegger fans out there, check out the recent Harpers for a reprint of a Crispin Sartwell essay about Al Gore that ran during September in the “New York Press.” Gore fans and foes alike will find it hilarious. Sartwell makes a compelling phenomenological argument that Al Gore does not exist. “Al Gore is the absence even of absence.” I almost choked on my Fruity Pebbles this morning while reading it, I was laughing so hard.

> Ok, you guys asked for it:

The Real Debate
>
> Jim Lehrer: Welcome to the second presidential
> debate between Vice
> President Al Gore and Gov. George W. Bush. The
> candidates have agreed on
> these rules: I will ask a question. The candidate
> will ignore the
> question and deliver rehearsed remarks designed to
> appeal to undecided
> women voters. The opponent will then have one minute
> to respond by
> trying to frighten senior citizens into voting for
> him. When a speaker’s
> time has expired, I will whimper softly while he
> continues to spew
> incomprehensible statistics for three more minutes.

>
> Let’s start with the vice president. Mr. Gore, can
> you give us the name
> of a downtrodden citizen and then tell us his or her
> story in a way that
> strains the bounds of common sense?

>
> Gore: As I was saying to Tipper last night after we
> tenderly made love
> the way we have so often during the 30 years of our
> rock-solid marriage,
> the downtrodden have a clear choice in this
> election. My opponent wants
> to cut taxes for the richest 1 percent of Americans.
>
>
> I, on the other hand, want to put the richest 1
> percent in an iron clad
> lock box so they can’t hurt old people like Roberta
> Frampinhamper, who
> is here tonight. Mrs. Frampinhamperhas been selling
> her internal organs,
> one by one, to pay for gas so that she can travel to
> these debates and
> personify problems for me. Also, her poodle has
> arthritis.

>
> Lehrer: Gov. Bush, your rebuttal.

>
> Bush: Governors are on the front lines every day,
> hugging people, crying
> with them, relieving suffering anywhere a photo
> opportunity exists. I
> want to empower those crying people to make their
> own decisions, unlike
> my opponent, whose mother is not Barbara Bush.
>

> Lehrer: Let’s turn to foreign affairs. Gov. Bush, if
> Slobodan Milosevic
> were to launch a bid to return to power in
> Yugoslavia, would you be able
> to pronounce his name?

>
> Bush: The current administration had eight years to
> deal with that guy
> and didn’t get it done. If I’m elected, the first
> thing I would do about
> that guy is have Dick Cheney confer with our allies.
> And then Dick would
> present me several options for dealing with that
> guy. And then Dick
> would tell me which one to choose. You know, as
> governor of Texas, I
> have to make tough foreign policy decisions every
> day about how we’re
> going to deal with New Mexico.

>
> Lehrer: Mr. Gore, your rebuttal.
>
> Gore: Foreign policy is something I’ve always been
> keenly interested in.
> I served my country in Vietnam. I had an uncle who
> was a victim of
> poison gas in World War I. I myself lost a leg in
> the Franco-Prussian
> War. And when that war was over, I came home and
> tenderly made love to
> Tipper in a way that any undecided woman
> voter would find romantic. If I’m entrusted with the
> office of
> president, I pledge to deal knowledgeably with any
> threat, foreign or
> domestic, by putting it in an iron clad lock box.
> Because the American
> people
> deserve a president who can comfort them with simple
> metaphors.
>

> Lehrer: Vice President Gore, how would you reform
> the Social Security
> system?
>
>
> Gore: It’s a vital issue, Jim. That’s why Joe
> Lieberman and I have
> proposed changing the laws of mathematics to allow
> us to give $50,000 to
> every senior citizen without having it cost the
> federal treasury a
> single penny until the year 2250. In addition, my
> budget commits $60
> trillion over the next 10 years to guarantee that
> all senior citizens
> can have drugs delivered free to their homes every
> Monday by a federal
> employee who will also help them with the
> child-proof cap.
>
>
> Lehrer: Gov. Bush?
>
>
> Bush: That’s fuzzy math. I know, because as governor
> of Texas, I have to
> do math every day. I have to add up the numbers and
> decide whether I’m
> going to fill potholes out on Rt. 36 east of Abilene
> or
> commit funds to reroof the sheep barn at the Texas
> state fairgrounds.
>
>
> Lehrer: It’s time for closing statements.
>
>
> Gore: I’m my own man. I may not be the most exciting
> politician, but I
> will fight for the working families of America, in
> addition to turning
> the White House into a lusty pit of marital love for
> Tipper and me.
>
>
> Bush: It’s time to put aside the partisanship of the
> past by electing no
> one but Republicans.
>
>
>
> Lehrer: Good night.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jumphigh83:

Just look how much the last eight years have done to improve education. The schools are all state of the art, our children can read and do math on a par with the rest of the world, teachers are well paid, the schools are in great condition with plenty of teachers and aids and equipment…all this under the democrats…And I also have some lovely swamp land in Florida to sel to any interested democrats.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually the education statistics HAVE improved slightly in the last 10 years. However the well-known-truth-but-rarely-mentioned by ANY candidate is that changes in education are really bought about at the state level, and generally take 10-15 years to show up in test scores. So I guess if you are voting for Bush based on his education platform/performance, you better do a write in for Ross Perot and the federal judge who bought the matter of education to a head in Texas

BTW, that swamp land in Florida… mostly drained, developed and causing a serious water crisis in Florida as we speak… But I do think you can get a VERY good price for it!

Snowbird, thank God you are out there! I’m with you all the way! Go Bush/Cheney!!!
A few questions to our liberal friends here…we are all friends aren’t we?
Taxes - Why do you think it’s fair to tax people at higher rates when they make more money? Why should only a select few get tax relief and not all?
Aboriton - Why should our taxes go to “Planned Parenthood” to perform abortions? Especially since there’s more than one our two of us out in this world who are against it. Sure a woman can do what she wants with her body and she can have an abortion if she wants, but it should be done through private enterprise and not with government help.
Social Security - Why shouldn’t we be able to keep a little more of the SS tax to put away for our retirement? It IS our money!!!
Choices - Why shouldn’t parents be able to choose what school there child could go to? How many of you were bussed across your city back in the 60’s and 70’s only to have a school across the street where you lived?
Guns - Why do you want to take guns away from us?
OK, that’s enough for a start. Have at it!!!
And remember, we’re all one big happy country here!!!

Now if I could just find a party I truly can get behind!

A new one… The Education Party!!

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sannois:
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by DMK:
[B]Sannois

After reading your perspective on America and her politics, I can only imagine that you will find no comfort no matter WHO is elected…
Not true, DMK. I would be very happy if Harry Browne, Libertarian Party were elected.

[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well thank goodness THAT won’t happen! One right that has NOT been restricted is an American’s right to move about as they please. Please feel perfectly free to move to another country where you can spout this rhetoric and form your utopian culture. Oh wait! There aren’t any other country’s that would let you do that.

Thank you Jumphigh83-for some excellent points. First of all, if you review Gore’s record since he became a politician he has done a 360 on all issues. I’m voting for Bush…no, he doesn’t preach everything I believe in (I am pro-choice)or want but I believe he will do as he says. Honestly-it seems crazy for people to pin their hopes and fears on one man-it’s the Congress and Senate we need to take more if an interest in.

LOLOL Inverness!

Magnolia… ABSOLUTELY!! There are “good” and “bad” representatives in every religion. I have no problem with any religion per se (you shoudl see my family tree… Catholic, Mormon, Baptist Wiccan, and i think there’s a jewish inlaw in there somewhere)… only with the individuals (which unfortunately bleed their personality into a “whole” picture) that try to use force, etc to get everyone to think they way they do. Which is what the radical Christian right wing has been known to do. And which G.W. has been quoted as saying (for example) in regards to the legitimacy (sp?) of Wicca as a religion – which, fyi, he doesnt’ think its a religion and the military should not honor it as such… now, how do you think Wiccans are going to fare in the military with THAT as the attitude from teh Commander in Chief?

As for the 10 Commandments… I have no problem advocating the teaching of the ideas BEHIND the commandments… but teaching strictly the commandments is teaching strictly christian doctrine. And that I do have a problem with. I would feel better if one were taught the 10 commandments along with (for example) the Wiccan Rede and other religious doctrine (which, imho, all say basically the same thing anyway… but the perspective is different). Why can’t people be exposed to as many religious values as possible? Isn’t that part of what religious freedom shoudl be? just imho

[This message has been edited by training level eventer (edited 10-27-2000).]

Kryswyn - -

I have read this thread on and off with a combination of amusement, interest and at times, boredom. Not your posts in particular, but the whole thread.

However, you have stepped over a line to a place where you do not belong. How dare you discuss the topic of interracial or international adoption if you know NOTHING about it? What on god’s green earth does this have to do with Bush vs. Gore, much less about horses?

You comments on this subject have not only been ignorant and uneducated, but also highly insulting and offensive. I speak from first-hand experience. I do not feel the need to attempt to educate you or anyone else any further about this issue, as it clearly doesn’t concern you and is out of place on this board. But I will cordially ask you to please confine yourself to subjects about which you know something.

That’s all fine, Holland, but how do I explain to my cats that we’re trying to elect an anti-intellectual former coke-snorting party boy as president?

[This message has been edited by hobson (edited 11-02-2000).]

I agree. You Bush supporters aren’t doing yourselves any favors, in fact, you are really scaring off us poor undecideds…
For the sake of the nation, this 3rd Party Queen, hater of both parties is saying…
Please Vote for Gore / Leiberman! We sure as %$^& don’t want Bush!

All right, just to throw in a few more of my cents…

Why the automatic “get the goverment out of my life” reactions? C’mon, folks, you’re a smart bunch - the government does a ton of useful things! Without federal government “meddling,” there would be no Nat’l Institutes of Health to find cures and treatments for almost every nasty disease on the planet. There’d be no EPA to force toxic-sludge-dumping corporations to clean up their messes (the oil would still be floating around Alaska from the Valdez). No civil rights legislation to prevent less egalitarian-minded states from the rampant discrimination they’d otherwise be inclined to allow. Airplanes would be crashing into one another. No FDA to ensure that your food and prescription medication is safe to ingest. No land-grant universities with agricultural programs that have done so much for the horse and farm industries. I could go on and on. Now don’t get me wrong - the feds do some really boneheaded things as well. The murderous hi-jinx of the CIA in Latin America come to mind…the useless drug war that has resulted in MORE drug trade, etc.

And don’t kid yourselves - no individual state or local government has the resources to perform these functions. You think the exalted Market Forces will cause all the aforementioned services to happen? Then go check your dictionary - the word “gullible” isn’t there! And you like local control of things like zoning and development? That’s exactly why the Philadelphia area is losing open space at a rate second only to Houston (uhhh - Bush supporters, are you paying attention?), as the patchwork of township-level regulations is no match for the massive developers lobby. State-level control of schools results in Kansas kids getting taught creationism as a science. Here in PA, local funding and control of schools means that kids in poor neighborhoods get crappy public schools and kids in wealthy neighborhoods get fabulous public schools. A nice system if you’re into the idea of the elite class reproducing itself with no worries about sharing, not so great if you’re a poor kid who’d like to get ahead.

This rant is now concluded. Oh, and JumpHigh, I think Buchanan is your man.

BUSH: our economy has been so strong lately that Alan Greenspan has been raising interest rates to slow it down. If Bush cuts taxes, it will overheat the economy, leading to inflation (because with more income, people will want to buy much more than the economy can produce) and out-of-sight interest rates (as Greenspan tries to get control of the economy – think back to 1982!). How will this affect the horse industry? Since horses are a luxury good, that industry tends to get hit harder during recessions.

GORE: Gore plans to use a good chunk of the surplus to pay down the national debt. This will lower interest payments on the debt, thus reducing the third largest expenditure of the federal goverment. Interest rates will be lower, which will stimulate investment (truly more of a “supply-side” policy) which will increase growth. A stable economy will help “stable” people (pun intended).

Bush continually reiterates that the tax money is ours, so we should get it back. However, the debt is ours too. When will we pay it down if not during a time of budget surpluses?

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by exyankeerider:
Bush !
Gore is an idiot who is also a pathological liar !
Remember, HE invented the internet, discovered the Love Canal toxic site, and LOVE STORY was written about him & Tipper.
When Gov. of Tenn. he was for gun ownership, but now he isn’t because the media polls tell him not to.
What foreighn diplomacy does he have ?
NONE
What businesses did he operate ?
NONE
What branch of the military was he in ?
NONE
HOw did he reproach “slick willie” Clinton?
DIDN’T, in fact he applauded him.
BUSH is the one hope this once great nation has, not another lying, liberal, power hungry, BIG government suporting, rights stripping, 2 faced, media puppet !
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please plug in your brain for your next post. You are a victim of spin sickness.

Ok, what’s cappicola???

Oh - Welcome, welcome, welcome, jumpergal! I hope you’ve been to visit some other threads besides this one!

[This message has been edited by Duffy (edited 10-30-2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hobson:
Holland, are you really Peggy Noonan, Ronald Reagan’s speech writer? - I see a credit to a Noonan at the bottom of your post.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I suspect that Peggy Noonan is the author and that it was copied here for our enjoyment - the same way that Inverness and DMK have been bringing us Molly Ivins (who is a hell of a lot funnier and more astute than Peggy Noonan).

There were several articles about Bush’s DUI in the Washington Post on Saturday. From what I recall, the article said he was arrested once before (and he readily admitted that) in college for a fraternity prank – swiping a Christmas wreath.

The article didn’t mention any other arrests, so I’m a bit dubious about the validity of the Moore article.

Here’s the one from the Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A11309-2000Nov3.html

Goodness, I just now noticed the paragraph at the end of the article that said Cheney has been arrested TWICE for DUI, while in his 20s. I hadn’t heard about that before…

[This message has been edited by Erin (edited 11-06-2000).]