BUSHvsGORE re:Horse Industry

[lisa]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin:
Am I remembering incorrectly, or aren’t handguns banned in some European countries?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe they are. But some drugs are legal/decriminalized in some countries, also.

And no, no one “needs” an automatic weapon to kill deer, or to have cop-killer bullets. And no responsible gun owner is going to use either in harmful way. Cop killer bullets are used by – guess who? – CRIMIINALS who didn’t get them legally anyway.

Twister is right. If you don’t know the guy next door is packing, you might think twice about whipping out the ol’ .38 – or the switchblade, for that matter…

[creseida]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hobson:
[B] Geez, Jumphigh, are you saying that as long as we keep driving our god-given gas guzzlers just like we’ve been, that the environmental changes will sort of cycle around and the ozone layer will begin to repair itself? Or that the smog will decrease? Maybe SUV’s can actually BENEFIT the planet after all! That’s great news!

[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, yes. Geologic history has shown that the ozone layer does indeed go through cycles, where the hole that has been there for eons (literally) shrinks and grows.

And quite frankly, the day that I was rear ended by an 18 wheeler, I was very glad I was in my Mom’s SUV. I thought I was dead since I knew the wreck was inevitable; I was boxed in on all 4 sides. Imagine my surprise when there was more damage to the Freightliner than to the Cherokee. BTW, the guy hit me so hard, it picked the back of the Cherokee up and turned it 45 degrees before the back wheels came down again, so it wasn’t a “love tap”.

[Heather]

Just for the record, my boss is working on the Bush campaign, as a consultant, so I am getting my info straight from the horses mouth, so to speak, not the tainted media everyone is screaming about. I was on the fence for awhile, but believe me, after spending the last year seeing this up cloase and personal, there is no doubt in my mind that Bush will do EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of what I would want.

-Don’t be fooled by the campaign promise of no litmus test–he wants abortion GONE.

-Bush, as was mentioened, thinks “handling” the environment means selling it off to the highest bidder and hoping whoever buys it keeps it intact. He has already promised to sell of the rights to the oilfields in Denali National Park in Alaska–so if he gets elescted I suggest hasty trip up there to tell you kids what it USED to look like–when there were actual living things there.

I don’t want my environment or schools or anything else, to resmeble what Texas has right now, thanks but no thanks.

And, I agree with the sentiment that its naive to think that taxes “go away”–its like matter, it can neither be created nor destroyed, only altered. Do I like paying taxes? He** no, but its a fact of life, they aren’t going anywhere, so I might as well agree with how they are being spent. (BTW, in the last 3 years I’ve paid the marraige AND inheritance tax–fun no, but a fact of life).

[moose]

QUOTE “Environmental changes are pretty predictable and quite cyclical. Yes we have an impact on our environment but not the doomsday impact our vice president would have you believe.”

I can empathise in a big way with the cost of gas in hauling, but visit Mexico City and then if possible, India, to get the full effect of what pollution can do to the enviroment if you don’t have a functioning public works, epa, etc. When I asked a classmate why he & his family left India, since they had a business & money there, he said for starters imagine, sewage in the streets and covering your mouth from the car exhaust. I am becoming aware of the ozone situation since I now have three friends that have gotten skin cancer. Everything I have read has been that industry pollution has been a major factor in the
ozone layer. It always seems like dammage to the envirment has to be done to the extreme so that it can’t be deniable before any one reacts.

QUOTE-"Democrats generally that I have been interviewed by, have only one interest, that seems to be “hack strings”.

There are two presidents that I can think of as associated w/ horses. Reagan, a republican - that I believe removed tax breaks associated with owning them. And then Kennedy a democrat, who because of his wife and childrens love of them, caused a huge increase in interest in riding. I don’t think the Kennedy’s rode “hack strings”. However, the “hack string” owners I have known, are staunch republicans, since they are small business owners.

QUOTE: “The envirommentalists do not consider that horses are an appropriate use for public land because horses drop manure behind. Their hoofs chew up the trails and make it unpleasant for the joggers and walkers”

I’ve run into this, imho is that the only ones at fault are the horse people for not making it known in positive ways, that they wish to have access, or for simply disappearing from that area all together.

QUOTE: “Hey rockstar, I appreciate your efforts and while I’m voting for Ralph, who is unfortunately the most tedious public speaker in the world, I’m secretly rooting for Gore.”

IMHO, If you are secretly rooting for Gore, don’t vote Nader, since it will only split the vote and help Bush to win. I situation like this I think your really need to decide whether you are Republican or Democrat.

[hobson]

Yay, magnolia! I’m hoisting a tall frosty root beer at this moment in your honor. The thing about the Libertarians is, they’re great at reminding conservatives that “big government” means not only lending a hand to less fortunate human beings, but also millions upon millions in welfare to big business.

Anyway, here are some great Bush-isms I found. Again, these are hardly Quayle-worthy, but they’re fun:

“Actually, I – this may sound a little West Texan to you, but I like it. When I’m talking about – when I’m talking about
myself, and when he’s talking about myself, all of us are talking about me.”
–Hardball, MSNBC, May 31, 2000

“It’s clearly a budget. It’s got a lot of numbers in it.”
–Reuters, May 5, 2000

“We want our teachers to be trained so they can meet the obligations; their obligations as teachers. We want them to know how to teach the science of reading. In order to make sure there’s not this kind of federal cufflink.”
–Fritsche Middle School, Milwaukee, March 30, 2000

“I think we need not only to eliminate the tollbooth to the middle class, I think we should knock down the tollbooth.”
–Nashua, N.H., as quoted by Gail Collins, New York Times, Feb. 1, 2000

“Will the highways on the Internet become more few?”
–Concord, N.H., Jan. 29, 2000

“This is still a dangerous world. It’s a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses.”
–At a South Carolina oyster roast; quoted in the Financial Times, Jan. 14, 2000

“We must all hear the universal call to like your neighbor just like you like to be liked yourself.”
–At a South Carolina oyster roast; quoted in the Financial Times, Jan. 14, 2000

“Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning?”
–Florence, S.C., Jan. 11, 2000

“The important question is, How many hands have I shaked?”
–Answering a question about why he hasn’t spent more time in New Hampshire; quoted in the New York Times, Oct. 23, 1999

“Keep good relations with the Grecians.”
–Quoted in the Economist, June 12, 1999

[Kryswyn]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
No one I have ever known ever-ever considered the child they adopted as an insult to them because they couldn’t produce their own. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn’t say insult, I said reminder . I have had family friends as well as extended family who paid $$$$$ for multiple adoptions of white children. Is there a problem with their perceptions (we want to ‘pass’ as a ‘natural’ family)? Absolutely! As you say, once you’ve nutured it for a bit, you’d fight lions for it, whatever the color. But you and I (sadly) do not make up the whole spectrum. And, I believe, statisically, more white women have abortions than other races, lowering the percentage of adoptable white children. And, yes, I think it’s deplorable that mixed race adoptions are not permitted in certain places. But I am not a member of an ethnic minority who’s culture might be diluted/lost by this happening. So my opinion should not be weighted heavily.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>…the home base of Attila and his brother Buda. Did you know that Budapest is named after his brother? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I did. I’m a product of the 70’s middle class based public school system. And I read for enjoyment. Did you know that during WWI and II the Brits called the German’s “huns” to emphasize their supposed brutality?

 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Taxes: If you have a big piece of the pie, and you loose a chunk of it, you'll notice it less than the person w/ a sliver.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Again I find your statement unprincipled. Do you believe that in a democracy it is logical and fair that someone who has created great wealth should have it taken away and re-allocated to those who sat home watching TV and having babies? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unfortunately the TV watching baby-makers are sort of lumped in w/ the disabled, minimum wage earning lower middle class folks who need goverment services to get by in this world. Proportionately, I think there are fewer “welfare mothers” than the rest of the population that is getting the benefit of education funds, health care, military protection.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
And, if you do believe that then what incentive is there to be successful? Is that not what brought down Russia? People wouldn’t produce more than they needed. Why should they work so hard for someone else?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
When the top 1% are taxed so heavily that everyone in America earns w/in $25k a year of each other, that will be a problem. Until then, if you’re making 5-100 MILLION a YEAR, you can afford to pay the system that allows you to prosper BACK for the opportunity. By the way, did you ever read how some of today’s heirs and heiress’s anscestors made their fortunes? On the backs of immigrants and the less fortunate, that’s how. They got tax breaks up the wazoo as incentives to put in railroads, build mill towns, etc. They got preferential treatment. Is THAT what you want? The golden children can play w/ their horses today because the tax breaks their grandpappys got 100 years ago.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>…you should heed my previous post and vote for Bush to save Al Gore for posterity. The Bush Horoscope shows no danger. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heck no! I think Lieberman will be a great president. <grin>

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>So perhaps we can agree on something.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We actually agree on many things! Just not in this thread!!!

[DMK]

Inverness, I am beginning to think you get more enjoyment out of that site than I do!!

As for the “diction thing” I was listening to a candidate (who shall remain nameless to protect the innocent ), who said “…the pundits say that tax cuts don’t resignate with the voters, I believe tax cuts resignate with voters…”

I myself, felt quite resignated too…

[This message has been edited by DMK (edited 11-02-2000).]

[Mariner]

Snowbird and Jumphigh,
I understand that you have valid, personal reasons for supporting Governor Bush in the upcoming election. I myself share many of them.

But why are you so ANGRY about it?

I sincerely hope that, regardless of the outcome of the election, you are both able to shed your anger and self-righteousness and find happiness. Please go out and hug your horses. I promise you it will help.

Go Bush/Cheney!!

[moose]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by smedley:
I’ve never actually met a Christian. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Smedley for president!!!

[Finzean]

Just my .02 about the issue of local vs. federal govt…

Political machines are all the same, just on different scales. The local councilwoman may return your emails and phone calls, listen intently (while rifling through other paperwork, etc) and so on but believe me, she is going to do what is most politically advantageous for her, those who support her, and those who do the most to keep her in that position. I have worked for years lobbying local govts. for better animal cruelty laws, differential pet licensing, humane euthaniasia, trained shelter workers, etc. (just my little contribution to the world); in doing so I have attended numerous council meetings, spent countless hours composing letters and leading groups of like minded individuals, making tv appearances, you name it… My point is this: Vote for the candidate who best supports/represents your concerns, but know that unless you contribute on a grass roots level, the changes you want will come only if the biggest players in the game also want them. These guys come as a package…you get them along with the big money that puts them there.

On a personal note, I live deep in Bush territory and the number of voters I see driving around in mommie vans with NRA stickers on the back windshields, scares the hell out of me. Mostly because not very many of them can tell you anything about “the issus” other than what the NRA pamphlets say. I’m sure the same holds true for other issues, this one is just the most obvious here.

As for my choice on Election Day…still undecided. As the Canadian poster said on page 1 of this thread “it’s the lesser of 2 evils.”

[hobson]

Aw, rockstar, sorry I’m such a frustration for you! I like you, and don’t wish to make you crazy. You are absolutely right about the winner-take-all electoral system - as I’ve said in a past thread, I’m a misplaced parliamentarian aching for proportional representation (Lani Guinier, where are you when I need you!) I feel so impotent watching the rightward shift we’ve discussed, and I just don’t feel like supporting the shift just to win is the answer. For me, anyway. On most issues, voting for Gore does not feel much different than voting for Bush. I have to vote my conscience. Even if Bush gets elected, (and I refuse to accept resonsibility if that happens - it means the DP didn’t do a good enough job, not that I “stole” the votes) there are ways to deal with it. Heck, the Republicans have mobilized very effectively in congress to block many of Clinton’s and the democrats’ initiatives. The democrats can do the same. Funding for social-service non-profits will go up, since well-to-do liberals who stopped contributing during the Clinton years will feel guilty and begin giving again. The American public will realize their blunder and elect Wellstone in 2004.

[Magnolia]

Just a bit of info…
Corporations get far more subsidies than do poor people. Mc Donald’s, ADM, etc.etc. They get tax breaks and government funded research and all sorts of junk. Big Oil gets wars fought for them etc.etc.
Poor people get very little. I lived upstairs from a kind veteran who worked fast food jobs. He served our country. He made barely enough to get by. He qualified for no programs whatsoever. He had a $300.00 a month apartment, no phone, no car. He ate basic food (the restaurant he worked for did not allow meals…). He had a second hand TV and radio. There are many others that live like him. (he was lucky - he had madical thru his veteran status.) Welfare programs cover few people anymore (basically families and the disabled.) The lazy person who wants to watch TV is a myth.
My point is, many of the super wealthy have benefited from tax dollars. Granted, many rich do not (esp. small business owners). I am sure Microsoft (which by the way, I think is great - Bill Gates shares his success with his employees!) has benefited (at one time) from government tax dollars.
So don’t fool yourself into thinking the rich get nothing, and the poor get a ride on some coat tails.

[Magnolia]

I bet the native americans wished they’d left their religion (and selves) in Europe…
America is not a nation of white christians, it has become a melting pot of many colors and faiths. Unique? yes. We cannot make laws based on religous values. Yes, most religions have basic similarities ~ be kind to one another, stealing is wrong etc.etc. It is fine to use those as a framework for law.
It scares those of us who aren’t Christian to be governed by those wishing to push Christian morals on us.
For example, what if Muslims become a majority and we must adhere to their beliefs? or the Rastafarians? or a Native American religion? How would you like it? Would you like your child to go to a school that began the day with a reading from the Koran? Would they feel out of place?
Religion is a fine thing, and there are many universal themes in religion that we should live by, but to say that one religion is 100% correct for everyone, and that everyone should live by that is short sighted.
I think the goal of religion is not governace, but a route to a personal relationship with God. How you find that is up to you. I experience God through nature. The beauty of the mountains and the vastness of the oceans is my proof of God, the lessons and cycles of nature guide me, not a book. Perhaps for you, your path to god is thru a dialog and rituals based on the bible. That is great, but it doesn’t work for me. The average Christian thinks it is immoral to have an abortion. Fine. I find it immoral to clearcut a forest and to overpopulate our gift of the earth.
My point is, I don’t tell you what to do morally, please don’t tell me what to do just because you believe that God wants us to leave via the bible.

[Kryswyn]

Magnolia, I know it seems hopeless, but really, your “protest” vote of casting ballots for a 3d party is throwing your vote away.

Consider this:
You don’t like either Bush or Gore. You decide not to vote AT ALL. Result? Your friends and neighbors choose your President. Is that what you want?

Or: You don’t like either Bush or Gore. You vote 3d party. Your candidate doesn’t get 1% of the vote, and once again your friends and neighbors choose your President for you. Is that what you really want?

I submit that while you may not like either Algore or Dubya, if you examine their stance on the issues, ONE of them will be more in line with your views. It might end up being a smaller issue that decides it, but I submit you dislike one of them more, so you can vote for the other one and choose your own President. Good luck.

[SFLauren]

Random thought:

Did anyone catch the last couple weekends of Saturday Night Live?

They had the BEST take on the debates!
Soooooo funny…

[ohnowwhat]

Bush.

[Aly]

“Aly- You’re not implying that it is the government’s job to hire teachers to teach everyone who can swim into the country in their chosen language, are you?
Actually, in some places they do that - Fairfax VA had some classrooms in elem school with 10 or 12 “assistants” whose purpose was to translate the class into the child’s native language. Your tax dollars at work !!!”

TXJumper,

I’m curious that rather than addressing the substance of my questions and comments, you chose to invoke the spector of putatively illegal aliens. What is it about “otherness” that frightens us so?

As to what appears to be your question: First, I believe it is the government’s responsibility, and it’s own best interests, to educate it’s citizenry – however that citizenry came to be. Parents may choose other options, of course, but that choice does not remove the government’s responsibility in this specific regard.

Second, if my tax dollars are being spent to teach foreign-born children, in their native language, so as to improve their educational outcomes (and their likely contribution to OUR society later), so much the better.

Finally, the alternatives implied by your question (a generation of undereducated and subsequently unemployable children) simply don’t bear thinking about — on political or moral grounds.

Aly

[hobson]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by magnolia:
oops, I forgot to make a point. My point is, if you are a hunter, who likes to hunt, you may consider voting Gore, as Bush just may sell off your favorite hunting ground to the highest bidder. And then all you’ll be able to shoot are cans off your porch.
Remember, the NRA has a stronger lobby than your eco friends. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Final, final remark:
But Gore will take away our right to blow squirrels and bunnies away with military ammo!

[Canter]

Aw you guys…those quotes are totally ROTFLMAO!!!

I’m Canadian but I just had to read all 11 pages just to see what all the fuss was about.

Thank you all for a very informative, educational update on current American politics. Believe it or not this topic has given me more insight than anything I’ve read in the press thus far.

Thank you Erin for allowing it to go on.

If only The West Wing was this entertaining

[DMK]

Sannois

After reading your perspective on America and her politics, I can only imagine that you will find no comfort no matter WHO is elected…