The state vets at Penn are only checking in the ship-in barn? Everything stabled there or that is using a ship-in stall is only looked at in the paddock? How do they justify that?
What kind of injuries are Gill’s horses suffering? What’s the overall breakdown rate there right now?
By how much has Gill’s win percentage improved and breakdown rate inflated since Norman came on board? (And what does his criminal record have to to with his ability to train a horse?)
another one on Saturday 11/7
I watched as a very nice looking 2 year old broke down at Penn National on Saturday night in the 3rd race (literally right in front of me), Gus The Firefly. I’m not sure what exactly happened to him as he fell to the ground after the race and from where I stood, it looked as if he may have had a heart attack or something similar as he appeared to die shortly after he went down, before the ambulence pulled up, but I’m not positive. It also may have been that he broke his leg/ankle and went into shock because his left front seemed to hang at a weird angle when he went down, but it may have been just how I was looking at it.
It wasn’t a Gill horse this time but it definitely seems that there a lot of breakdowns at Penn lately, scary and such a shame…
If anyone on here knows exactly what happened with Gus The Firefly could you please PM me? It was so painful to watch… I had seen him in the paddock and spent the whole race telling my friends how I loved the look of this boy and would love to have him in as my own to turn into a hunter.
Dick or someone there should do some video and write up the story and stats and send it to the local news, The Blood Horse, some of the sports stations or Bryant Gumble – whatever – publicity is the only way to get something done. This guy is a horse terrorist and should be outed and kicked to the curb.
PennyG
[QUOTE=TKR;4489883]
Dick or someone there should do some video and write up the story and stats and send it to the local news, The Blood Horse, some of the sports stations or Bryant Gumble – whatever – publicity is the only way to get something done. This guy is a horse terrorist and should be outed and kicked to the curb.
PennyG[/QUOTE]
I know someone who put a pile of stuff on the Bloodhorse’s lap and they did nada. That publication is all about the sales and not much else. They don’t care about he Mike Gill’s of the world.
[QUOTE=mroades;4488047]
And then get sued for it…[/QUOTE]
For what ?? any independent contractor has the right to refuse to sell / service anything to anyone at anytime.
With exception of firefighters and ER personel.
[QUOTE=SleepyFox;4488781]
Dick, Penn really isn’t doing pre-race vet checks? Are they scratching anything in the paddock?
I’m curious - how do Gill’s horses look in the paddock and post? Are these horses visibly lame? Does he have trouble getting a jock?
I have a couple of points to make after reading the replies…
A track cannot single out one person’s stock to perform random tests on. That’s not a road we need to head down b/c it could just as easily lead to someone being excluded from testing. It needs to be random. Also, remember Gill has a high win percentage and starts a lot of horses - his stock gets tested pretty frequently.
And since it costs more they don’t Super test which is the only way to catch alot of the drugs.
This has been noted before, any track can deny privledges @ their discretion, and quite a few already have done so.
Myectomies are not the same as “slitting the throat.” Let’s get real people. Gill (like most big barns) runs a cookie cutter operation. I don’t think every horse needs a myectomy, but Gill thinks it can’t hurt, so he does it. It’s his money and it really doesn’t hurt the horse. Painting the procedure as a sign of a butcher isn’t accurate.
This term is not meant as a butchering technique but the exact term one of his previous vets used to use when going over to preform the surgery on his latest batch of claims.
Sharps containers on the farm are actually a sign of responsible management (he knows how to dispose of needles properly!). Not a sign of a butcher. Assuming the presence of needles means something sinister is kind of silly.
No it indicates the huge amount of needles disposed of on a regular bases, more than …in fact he is the only barn I have ever been in that was not a vets facilety w/ that many medical waste bins and sharpes containers period. Seriously how many training barns do you know with a wall stack??
And, if he has a horse sore enough to be digging a hole in his stall, do you really want him NOT to treat it? That doesn’t make sense.
So you totally missed that one…when a horse is standing in a *****ng crater is shaking w/ pain and left tied to a wall do ya think he’s been treated for the pain…??
I’m not saying the guy is a saint, but some of the accusations here just don’t make sense.[/QUOTE]
All this is not accusations, not seen by some bleeding heart rescue innocent. These are just plain real facts no hype no drama.Its a warehouse for horses. Walmart racing factory.
I also stated they had clean stalls, were all groomed, all well feed, fat n shiny. Alot sporting wraps n poultice This was not from just one quick peek but witnessed on more than one occassion.
As for Cole being a convicted felon, not my comment, I did not make that remark.
Gill hires what he can get:)
In the wrong business? I am just starting out again training a string of racehorses for a few owners after a few years in corporate america to actually make some money. My niche used to be bringing along horses with problems (after chip surgery, etc.) and getting them racing again. Probably because of my background working with vets, etc. Of course, since I am just starting, this is the case again. But I love it, watching the progress and seeing the horses bloom and the ultrasounds improve, etc.
Here is the alarming part…Many people in the industry have felt free to offer their unsolicited advice about my horses. I just laugh and keep working. The common theme is that they should be running to make money and if I like the horses I am in the wrong business. If I am not willing to drug them up and go, I will never succeed. Of course, these are not eclipse award winning people but the bottom of the barrel. It is also not a new theme since I lost a horse in 1996 because I walked a horse in the shedrow instead of taking it to the track because she had heat in her leg, she had part of her sesamoid removed and I was being careful. The owner said point blank that if she was going to break down, he wanted her to do it soon rather than after 3 months of training. I was like “how about we don’t break her down?”.
I know in my gut that I do the right thing, what is a couple of weeks to get them right when there has been years of $ invested in them? But, I can’t help but worry that running them at the appropriate level makes them prey for these losers. It also creates a situation that jockeys don’t want to try or even ride for trainers that aren’t huge because they know this goes on and don’t want to get killed.
Anyway, maybe I am delusional, but I will continue to treat each one like they are Zenyatta or RA and hope that I can compete with these POS people who treat them like a number…please say there are others out there…
What was wrong with these 5-6 horses?
They should fall under jurisdiction of the racing commission. In many racing jurisdictions yards/farms are subject to initial approval and random spot checks at any time. Refusal to comply will result in the trainer’s lisence being revoked.
[QUOTE=Drvmb1ggl3;4490473]
They should fall under jurisdiction of the racing commission. In many racing jurisdictions yards/farms are subject to initial approval and random spot checks at any time. Refusal to comply will result in the trainer’s lisence being revoked.[/QUOTE]
Maybe where you are, but not in Pennsylvania
And since it costs more they don’t Super test which is the only way to catch alot of the drugs.
My point is super tests need to be kept random - if it’s not random there is way to much room for abuse. Penn draws for a super every night (I think they race at night?), don’t they? With Gill’s number of starters, he gets tested a lot. Singling him out for testing more, isn’t going to do anything except set a dangerous precedent. And, not b/c I think you shouldn’t test suspected cheats, but if you start picking and choosing who you test, it leaves the door open to bypass certain people.
This has been noted before, any track can deny privledges @ their discretion, and quite a few already have done so.
But, there needs to be a solid reason. Every successful trainer is accused of cheating. Just because someone is accused of cheating or people on the internet don’t like his choice of employees or the way he treats his stock like assets, that’s not very good justification for sanctions.
So you totally missed that one…when a horse is standing in a *****ng crater is shaking w/ pain and left tied to a wall do ya think he’s been treated for the pain…??
Wait. So, this guy has this barn where they’re injecting everything in sight and yet he’s got horses in obvious pain that they aren’t treating? That makes no sense. He’s treating everything but those that really need it? And, then you go on to say it’s a “Walmart racing factory.” I assure you, if he’s running a “racing factory” he isn’t going to try to run a horse that is shaking with pain. So, yeah, I’d say if that was the case, they were working on the horse.
As for Cole being a convicted felon, not my comment, I did not make that remark.
Gill hires what he can get
Sorry for the confusion. My comment was aimed at Dick who has some strong dislike for Cole Norman that I don’t understand. Felony conviction aside, Norman has an excellent eye for claiming and I’m not surprised that Gill would want him on board.
They should fall under jurisdiction of the racing commission. In many racing jurisdictions yards/farms are subject to initial approval and random spot checks at any time. Refusal to comply will result in the trainer’s lisence being revoked.
Drvmb, where in the US are you not allowed to use needles on the farm?
Again, I’m not saying this guy is a saint. But the accusations are all over the board and don’t make much sense.
[QUOTE=DickHertz;4490517]
Maybe where you are, but not in Pennsylvania[/QUOTE]
I’m aware of that.
But there is no reason they could not be under the jurisdiction of the racing commission. Private property argument doesn’t hold up, a lisence is a privilege not a right, if you don’t let inspectors on your property then you don’t get to play the game.
Look at the farce of Biancone being under suspension yet training away at a private facility.
When Security guards won’t even walk through the barns at Penn National, I doubt the commission is ever going to get the ambition to monitor the hundreds of farms who race horses at various tracks.
Sleepy,
the purpose of the thread was to merely point out the number of breakdowns - which I think even you will acknowledge is alarming. That is fact and not speculation. You can review the charts at www.equibase.com.
Are you willing to go on record as saying that Cole Norman has a clean history with positive drug tests? What does his ability in claiming horses have anything to do with the fact that he’s been kicked out of racing?
[QUOTE=Drvmb1ggl3;4490535]
I’m aware of that.
But there is no reason they could not be under the jurisdiction of the racing commission. Private property argument doesn’t hold up, a lisence is a privilege not a right, if you don’t let inspectors on your property then you don’t get to play the game.
Look at the farce of Biancone being under suspension yet training away at a private facility.[/QUOTE]
Sure. But, what is he doing that is illegal? Only a licensed vet is allowed to have needles on track property. But, it’s perfectly legal for anyone to have needles off track property. So, even if they inspected the farm, what are they going to find that is illegal?
It is an alarming number of breakdowns and it makes me curious about what is happening. You would think with the number of breakdowns Penn is experiencing (and the documented surface issues) that the vets would be extra dilligent in checking horses. There’s an interesting lawsuit going on right now where an owner is suing b/c the horse broke down and the owner claims the vets should have scratched the horse pre-race. (I really don’t think that responsibility should lie with the state vets. If the horse was that hurt, it should have been noticed in the barn prior to the vets even looking at it.) But, depending on the outcome, it could have other jurisdictions paying more attention to pre-race exams.
It’s the subsequent speculation and hyperbole about Gill’s operation that I take issue with. 
All I’m saying is Norman knows how to run a claiming barn. And is criminal record has no impact on his ability as a horseman.
And I agree about Norman knowing how to run a claiming barn. However, many successful claiming barns are successful because of making the horses feel sounder than they are. I’ve had previously trained Norman horses. I’m not just talking out of my a**. The needles enter the joints often.
[QUOTE=Dispatcher;4490228]
What was wrong with these 5-6 horses?[/QUOTE]
Slabbbed knee dead stone 3 leg lame.
Fractured cannon bone (condylar) to joint 3 leg lame
Knee chips removed re chipped knee super SORE
Sore, Lame, fat knees w/ ankles.
Suspicious suspensory and badly run down long weak pasterns.
[QUOTE=DickHertz;4490692]
And I agree about Norman knowing how to run a claiming barn. However, many successful claiming barns are successful because of making the horses feel sounder than they are. I’ve had previously trained Norman horses. I’m not just talking out of my a**. The needles enter the joints often.[/QUOTE]
:)Ahh…Dickie you warm the cockles of my heart…and I to am NOT talking out of my a****.
I have the unique position of not only seeing w/ my own eyes…but thru the eyes of those who did the deeds there.
And yes I saw more than one …done horse… in total abject PAIN. Sweating shaking and digging because they were most likely waiting for “The Majic Number” to apply and have a one way trip.
His horses are not tropheys in a sportsman like situation.Nor respected cherished athletes.
These are Nascars on 4 legs…revve em cut the legal corner as close or over the line as you can get…an when the tires blow and engine fails. Go get another one.
Gill does not seem to have one molecule of compassion or “Love of the Sport”…Sport being the operative word. ITS A BUSINESS.
And to consider him responsible cause he has a sharps contain is just naive. He is not worth defending on any level.
When you win by sheer volum of number of starters, and exactly how many horses has he brought up thru the ranks from 2yrs old on?? Dickie some statistics please. He takes someone elses works in progress…nothing wrong there but the huge numberts and just plain raids???
Look at the list of trainers who he says he fired and add to the ones who plain quit him. Take in the qualities as he goes down and down thru the trainer ranks.
If Cole were such a “sterling” individual of moral pulchritude w/ highly regarded in demand prows why on earth would he stope to train for someone of Gill’s ilk?
Gill
Had to chime in on this one. Actually racetracks are considered private property and they can exclude any one they like by naming them as an undesireable. Just ask Julio Cartegena (don’t want to open that can of worms), disallowed to enter and run at CT, reason: he scratched his horses to often, Casey Cartegena disallowed to enter and run at CT, reason: her association with Julio (her father). Or I guess you could ask Michael Gill himself, disallowed at Delaware and Gulfstream reason: he claimed entire divisions of horses. We all know these are’nt really legit reasons but they held up in court, so yes a track can rule you off.
All tracks are having trouble filling there entries so they are less inclined to want to exclude large stables, however as I mentioned above they do it.
As for Gill’s general care level it is top of the line, I was stabled next to on of his strings. As to want he does to the horses pre race BRUTAL, everyhorse that ran was pulled out into the shed row and had both ankles, both knees, and both hocks injected, EVERYTIME it ran. You can only go to the well so many times before there is nothing left, perhaps the reason for the high breakdown rate.
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