Business As Usual

Sleepyfox, myectomies do require slitting the throat. Perhaps you do not like the fragrant language, but it is what it is. I used to work for various vets and watched and assisted in multiple surgeries. What would qualify as a butcher in your book? This hack has surgeries on all of his horses. Any surgery, even those that are necessary, carry a risk. I have seen the horses (not Gill’s) who have had this “procedure”, that did not quite work. For the rest of it’s life, the food and water (at least some of it) will run out of it’s nose, one of them was a Two Punch son, and as kind as a kitten otherwise. Why would anyone in their right mind cut on an otherwise healthy horse, just because he “thinks” it will help?

Judy, sorry you had to see that and continue to have to watch this corrossive influence. Makes everyone bitter and something can be done. The Jockey Club has a project where they purport to be interested in working on the medical assistance aspect of the racing industry, maybe we can add unnecessary medical procedures to the list, to include denerving, and injecting every joint with a Depo cocktail. What used to make me gag was to watch while joints were bled (tapped) and then more injections and off to the races. It was considered just normal maintenance and prerace prep.

Cripes. What a helluva mess.

Sleepyfox, myectomies do require slitting the throat. Perhaps you do not like the fragrant language, but it is what it is.

I believe the technical term is “incision.” :wink:

Why would anyone in their right mind cut on an otherwise healthy horse, just because he “thinks” it will help?

IMO, across-the-board myectomies is silly. Obviously, Gill believes in it and not just because he’s sadistic - I’m sure he has a rationale behind that investment. But, to answer your question, there is no throat surgery that is guaranteed to help. You never “know” that you’ll be able to fix or help the problem.

What used to make me gag was to watch while joints were bled (tapped) and then more injections and off to the races.

Again with the misleading language. Joints are not tapped in some modern version of leeching, but rather to release pressure from buillt up fluid. Tapping a joint isn’t unecessary if the horse has pressure - it makes the horse much more comfortable.

[QUOTE=SleepyFox;4492363]

Again with the misleading language. Joints are not tapped in some modern version of leeching, but rather to release pressure from buillt up fluid. Tapping a joint isn’t unecessary if the horse has pressure - it makes the horse much more comfortable.[/QUOTE]

I’m sure everyone on this board, myself included, has tapped a joint. However, there’s a big difference between using 80% acid and 20% depo or 100% acid compared to using 100% cortizone, especially if it’s being done “just to do it.”

Again, the reality amidst this entire discussion is that Gill’s horses are breaking down at an alarming rate over the last 30 days at Penn. It’s too much of a sample to just say it’s a fluke.

[QUOTE=DickHertz;4492411]

Again, the reality amidst this entire discussion is that Gill’s horses are breaking down at an alarming rate over the last 30 days at Penn. It’s too much of a sample to just say it’s a fluke.[/QUOTE]

Why do you think that is? How is the overall breakdown rate right now? I mean, myectomies and joint injections aren’t leading to breakdowns. What do you think is going on?

[QUOTE=SleepyFox;4492363]
I believe the technical term is “incision.” :wink:

Incision may be the technical term, but it’s usually referred to as “cutting their throats”…most trainers use this “language”.

IMO, across-the-board myectomies is silly. Obviously, Gill believes in it and not just because he’s sadistic - I’m sure he has a rationale behind that investment. But, to answer your question, there is no throat surgery that is guaranteed to help. You never “know” that you’ll be able to fix or help the problem.

Again with the misleading language. Joints are not tapped in some modern version of leeching, but rather to release pressure from buillt up fluid. Tapping a joint isn’t unecessary if the horse has pressure - it makes the horse much more comfortable.[/QUOTE]

Once again, ask any trainer on the backside, and they will use the term “tapped”… in fact, so will most vets. Just saying…

[QUOTE=SleepyFox;4492474]
Why do you think that is? How is the overall breakdown rate right now? I mean, myectomies and joint injections aren’t leading to breakdowns. What do you think is going on?[/QUOTE]

In my opinion, I think horses with injuries that should require them to be in a stall on a layup farm are instead being entered to run.

On the Penn National side, I believe the problem lies with poor practices. They don’t examine them pre-race. They don’t scratch them when they’re lame in the post parade.

If you have someone willing to run a cripple and a jurisdiction who seems to have no ambition to prevent the cripples from running then there is no saftey net in place to keep the horses from breaking down. Unfortunately, I know the end result is going to be a jockey dying or being crippled. It’s going to take something drastic to get people there to wake up.

Sleepy Fox, what is your connection to Michael Gill? Seriously, the man has a horrible reputation and treats his stock like meat. Sorry if it offends you that there are people here, speaking for myself, who think that his treatment of his horses is cruel. Where do they end up when they’re done racing?

Frankly, I don’t think he gives a sh** about any of his horses unless they’re making him money. Okay, it’s a business, I get that.

You know what? If an owner/ trainer is hell-bent on winning races and will push the envelope to do that, they will take chances that may enhance the horse’s performance. They will do whatever they need to do to get a check from the horse. Sometimes that means that the horse has been given “magickal” medicine to achieve that goal. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to get it.

[QUOTE=foundationmare;4493397]
Sleepy Fox, what is your connection to Michael Gill? Seriously, the man has a horrible reputation and treats his stock like meat. Sorry if it offends you that there are people here, speaking for myself, who think that his treatment of his horses is cruel. Where do they end up when they’re done racing?

Frankly, I don’t think he gives a sh** about any of his horses unless they’re making him money. Okay, it’s a business, I get that.

You know what? If an owner/ trainer is hell-bent on winning races and will push the envelope to do that, they will take chances that may enhance the horse’s performance. They will do whatever they need to do to get a check from the horse. Sometimes that means that the horse has been given “magickal” medicine to achieve that goal. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to get it.[/QUOTE]

Amen. Thank you.

[QUOTE=foundationmare;4493397]
Sleepy Fox, what is your connection to Michael Gill?[/QUOTE]

I would say that Sleepy has more of a connection with Cole Norman than with Gill as his signature, “Ils sont partis!” indicates cajun country/louisiana racing.

[QUOTE=SleepyFox;4490594]

All I’m saying is Norman knows how to run a claiming barn. And is criminal record has no impact on his ability as a horseman.[/QUOTE]

I got a big laugh out of this one.

Original Post updated with a twist from racing last night. MONSOOR wins with comment of “Returned Lame”.

[QUOTE=foundationmare;4493397]
They will do whatever they need to do to get a check from the horse. [/QUOTE]

Foundationmare, I agree with you on this (although I feel compelled to remind everyone that this is true of a segment of the population in every horse sport). I’m not making allegations regarding Gill, but I have seen my fair share of horses sacrificed for the sake of a potential payday and I do take issue with that.

As I’ve stated before, my defense of Gill’s operation is that injecting joints and performing myectomies does not make one a butcher. It’s not that I think he runs a model barn, it’s that I think people get a little over the top in the bashing of him.

Mike Gill is perhaps the highest profile lowlife owner in the entire industry. I don’t think the bashing is over the top at all.

I have no issues with doing procedures to keep horses comfortable in their work as long as they are reasonable. Tapping and injecting lame horses to get “one more race” is irresponsible and cruel. Gill certainly isn’t the only one who does it, but he’s one of the most high profile. Just because he has a huge barn doesn’t make it ok.

I, for one, dream of the day when karma finally kicks his a$$

[QUOTE=SleepyFox;4494161]

As I’ve stated before, my defense of Gill’s operation is that injecting joints and performing myectomies does not make one a butcher. It’s not that I think he runs a model barn, it’s that I think people get a little over the top in the bashing of him.[/QUOTE]

Where you are wrong, SleepyFox, is that there should be a line that is not passed when tapping. Sending horses onto the racetrack who have had a half dozen cortizone injections does make a butcher. I’m not saying Gill has done this, but there is tapping and then there is tapping to the point of being a butcher. I think most real horseman would agree with this.

Do you feel that tapping a horse over and over again with straight cortizone is not the act of a butcher? What is your line between a therapeutic aid and going too far?

Do you feel it’s bashing to point out the incredible number of horses who have either broken down, not finished a race, or have returned to the paddock lame…in a very short period of time?

Maybe start a betting pool on how many horses break down on the card? I am sure somebody would bet on it if a bookie offered!

I would like to see Gill’s books tho, there is no way he can actually make money from that… :confused:

I think in the past few months Gill has probably made a few bucks. He’s claimng a little less and winning a bit more. However, for 2009 as a whole, it can’t be pretty. The guy makes some of the worst claims in the history of horse racing. I’ve seen them claim horses that look bad on paper and even worse in the paddock. He’s also known to claim horses coming off 1 or even 2 year layoffs. I’ve seen a couple work out, but as a whole they do not.

Sleepy, wiggling around with semantics aside, you need to stand in on some surgeries of horses who have have their joints tapped repeatedly and been injected with any number of concoctions whose end result was no joint fluid and bone on bone. Forever Joe casts his shadow over all of my thoughts on these matters and I will fight it in his memory. There was bone on bone and he was continuing to be injected and run. And, you are dead, (sorry for the pun) dead, wrong. Unnecessary procedures will cause breakdowns. So unbelieveable that you can defend these kind of actions as just an “opinion” and that he can do whatever he likes to do just because they are his horses and isn’t this a free world. What a bunch of unmitigated horse manure.

As far as the stats for breakdowns, they are very often muddied because Penn National (I know their MO from Charles Town), does not want to have horses euthanized on the track or on the ambulance because it counts as a stat. There is no official record made of horses who have come back to the barn and been euthanized, or who have had career ending injuries as a result of a race injury, so the stats are skewed anyway.

[QUOTE=judybigredpony;4487481]
If you think thats bad go have a look inside “Elk Creek Ranch” up tthe drive past the security gate.
Once inside you pass his neatly piled red canisters of "Bio Waste and Sharps right outside his fully stock in house pharmecy. With the banks of security cameras carefully watching everyones move.
Past the rows of wash stalls w/ horses either being injected, being prepped, or just finished, down the endless maze of clean stalls w/ fat, yes, shiny, yes, totally miserable faced horses. Some digging huge craters from pain of broken,chipped,slabbed, and achey joints (waiting for the weekly one way ride) to the new arrivels w/ freshly slit throats. A never ending factory for misery. And in truth they are well feed, well groomed and aesthetically well cared for horses. There are no rescues to be had or bought for rehab. Its a one way life for those horses and anyone who does NOT go claim their horse back needs to remember we all face a final judgement. This not a naive gospel rant, but when does this man get stopped. Ruled off forever, no horses ever to run in his name or any entity he is affiliated w/.
The revolving door of trainers there and on the track, the revolving door of help. A governing body unto the land of “Gill”.[/QUOTE] This is oh so true and it happens allover. Makes me sick and I’m starting to hate the whole business of TB racing.

Mateland Close came back and won, perhaps he was just a bleeder. Wish I could say the same about the others.