Business As Usual

[Laurierace]

[QUOTE=FairWeather;4891182]
Exactly–This is what CANTER came up with and is working to put in place–an AAEP Vet panel AT THE RACETRACKS to determine if horses will be sound for a second career. Not “serviceably sound”, not “pleasure ride” sound, but Sound. There are no more homes for limited-use Thoroughbreds, and a decision should be made AT THE RACETRACK to euthanize the horses.[/QUOTE]

I agree with that completely. As many of you know I have been helping to rehome race horses for over a decade. I know it sounds heartless but I don’t waste my time and more importantly, my contacts on horses that are not sound. The last unsound horse I placed was about three years ago. I was up front about the horse’s issue, even went so far as to forward the digital xrays to the adopters vet and made the trainer pay to geld the horse and pay to ship him etc. Long story short, a few months later the horse had not healed at all and he was put down. That wonderful woman was scarred deeply by this and I wouldn’t be surprised if she never takes on another OTTB sound or unsound because of that. I probably could have placed 10 or more sound ones with her that she could have retrained and rehomed but instead that is one person to cross off the list.

[frugalannie]

@FairWeather;4891182

Exactly–This is what CANTER came up with and is working to put in place–an AAEP Vet panel AT THE RACETRACKS to determine if horses will be sound for a second career. Not “serviceably sound”, not “pleasure ride” sound, but Sound. There are no more homes for limited-use Thoroughbreds, and a decision should be made AT THE RACETRACK to euthanize the horses.

Wonderful idea and great that it will be implemented.

This thread has gone through a fascinating evolution, hasn’t it?

There are so many excellent efforts working to rehome retired TBs, but I get the feeling that there isn’t one central focus to help them achieve the co-ordination of all the parties. As KBEquine said, it’s not the “trainer OR the owner OR the breeder OR the track OR the fans. It’s all of us.” And I’d add the Jockey Club. Might not be possible, but it would be a mighty force if there was industry-wide support that programs could tap into. It would also keep folks from having to re-invent the wheel at each track and jurisdiction as there would be a clear statement of expectations, resources and policies.

[FairWeather]

Laurie–Part of my reasoning about having horses euthanized at the track is that I CANNOT continue to do it myself, or expect my volunteers to do it. It’s just too hard. And why should we? (that sounds mean, I don’t mean it to). If it were up to me, those horses would be killed right in front of the people responsible for their condition.
It’s easier to send them down the road and think “they’ll be fine”.

Last year we took in a horse from DP that we were told was “fine” and “sound” but had an ankle. The horse was so lame coming off the trailer I insisted on my volunteer videotaping it. When we spent several hundred dollars in layup/xrays and vet consults that told us what we needed to know (collapsed ankle pretty much), we put the horse down.
That trainer called us horse killers when he found out about it (we went in and told his staff). All we did was end it’s suffering (and spent 1500$ of donated money doing it!), HE was responsible for injecting the ankle for one more race and killing him.

[DickHertz]

I think people forget the purpose of this thread is to be productive and I’m glad there is some intelligent debate going on about horse retirement. The problem is the Pennsylvania HBPA does not agree with the PNGI anti-slaughter policy and therefore if the horseman’s group themselves do not care about rehoming horses correctly and instituting rules about sending horses to direct to kill pens then we’re never going to have change at Penn. Our President, despite being one of the sharpest horse trainers in North America, has gotten a case of amnesia about a horse that ended up in a bad spot. I would encourage owners who want to know if their horse was really retired to ask your trainer the name, phone number and address of where the horse was sent and follow up with them today and see what you find.

For what it’s worth, PNGI has put the anti-slaughter policy on the overnight once again after it disappeared for three days.

[NMK]

For reasons that Fairweather and Laurierace noted, that is why the Surrender Stall Program at racetracks should be implemented. In a perfect world:

1. Provide listing services of horses available to the general public while they are still racing (CANTER, etc.)
2. HBPA/ TOBA and Racetrack Mgt.–provide “no questions asked” surrender stalls where anyone can turn in a horse on grounds.
3. Vets–perform soundness checks of horses in surrender stalls. Euthanize when necessary.
4. Race Management–have a number of accredited groups on call to take horses deemed good for placement.
5. Accredited Groups–place horses: screen new owners, provide protected bills of sales, follow up on placements.
6. National Governing Body (wish there was one) demand, implement, fund and market the above program.

Nancy

[Laurierace]

[QUOTE=DickHertz;4891393]
I think people forget the purpose of this thread is to be productive and I’m glad there is some intelligent debate going on about horse retirement. The problem is the Pennsylvania HBPA does not agree with the PNGI anti-slaughter policy and therefore if the horseman’s group themselves do not care about rehoming horses correctly and instituting rules about sending horses to direct to kill pens then we’re never going to have change at Penn. QUOTE]

Dick that is just plain not true. They do care and they are willing to put their money where their mouth is but they don’t want to waste money by jumping into something willy nilly. They want to lay the proper ground work and make sure things are done correctly. I know, I specifically talked to them about possibly being a part of the solution and was told what exactly they are willing to do. Its quite generous and if it comes to fruition it will make a huge difference to the horses they help and to the horseman in need of this service.

[NMK]

Laurierace, thank you for trying to be part of the solution…see above.

Nancy

[DickHertz]

Then why does the HBPA allow their president to change her story several times about the whereabouts of a horse that everyone wants to find with absolutely no recourse? If they cared about the HORSE, they would hold her feet to the fire which is ABSOLUTELY not he case. Just ask the HBPA members, except one HBPA owner who has personally told me they will hold her accountable if the horse is not found.

Laurierace, I appreciate what you are willing to do to help the situation.

[Laurierace]

Those are two separate subjects. You can not change the past but that doesn’t mean they don’t want to change the way things are handled in the future. I can say that if the program they are in the process of creating was an option when the horse that is unaccounted for needed a home that we would not be having this conversation. He would have gone to their transition farm and been evaluated and either rehabbed, retrained and adopted or euthanized but either way he would be accounted for.

[judybigredpony]

OK

Laurie in theory but not every trainer wants to “Give” money to a program. They want money in hand. Or the trainer who may often be left with unpaid bills is looking for some compensation.
The owner says “give” horse away and the trainer or assistant then dip in your pocket for a sales $$. Has happened to me more than one time. One trainer found out and made me stop check to assistant.

I digress. Not everyone will buy a horse if the noose and wording in adoption is to tight .
People like me who buy and sell OTTB into the sports world won’t buy if we can’t re-sell.
There is still a stigma small but there when re-selling horses from adoptions and CANTER.
Why because buyers fear that horse will have an undisclosed issue and they will have wasted $$ on a PPE.
Where as if you buy privately from a trainer a non advertised TB and pay more you will told the truth. In theory…
Thats where a good unbiased VET panel makes so much sense a clearing house to move those who can do the job thru the system.
More people will buy from CANTER.

Then you won’t need to look over here to find out who not to buy from:)

The other problem is chain of custodey, if I buy a horse and re-sell him along with a proper bill of sale and that buyer in turn for what ever reason down the road sends horse to auction who is accountable??

I gift a OTTB pleasure sound horse to a weekend warrier who looses their job, is embarressed to tell me or changes jobs moves away and horse ends up in auction whose to blame.

I’ve taken my share back provided saftey nets but there is always a first time.There is a loop hole in every contract.

And what about a master list of known offenders who come in take free horses and they end up at auction. They need to be prevented from accessing the horses in the first place. I’m not talking about the killer buyers but the innocent looking ones who promise a good home and next thing AC4H has photos of your horses at auction.
Bills of sale and or proof of sale must be shown at stable gate before horse departs grounds. Signed by trainer and a copy kept on record for track up to 1 year. simple effective easy. If horse shows up in a pen at least you have a starting point. Pick up bill of sale on way in drop off copy to guard on way out show your drivers lisense and vehicle tag numbers.

[FairWeather]

Judy, at Charles Town and Pimlico/Laurel, we have alerted the tracks to particular people who were taking horses under false pretenses, and the track has them listed on the security gates (or so they say).

Interesting article coming out this weekend in the Washington Post Magazine

[Laurierace]

No plan is perfect and covers everything that could possibly ever go wrong, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t have a plan anyway. As far as not wanting to give the horses away, that is absolutely fine. In fact as it stands now I prefer that. When someone comes to me for help rehoming a horse I ask them how much the horse is. If they say any number above a dollar I wish them luck and send them on their way. I have no issue with anyone selling a horse, but that doesn’t mean I am going to help them do it. So that leaves the freebies. The sound ones I network and post here. The unsound ones I give them some ideas but tell them I can’t personally help with placing unsound horses for the reasons I stated in an earlier post. If Penn National choses my facility for their transition farm then I would be in a position to help the unsound ones (from Penn only) because Penn National would be paying me to do so.

[judybigredpony]

[QUOTE=FairWeather;4891754]
Judy, at Charles Town and Pimlico/Laurel, we have alerted the tracks to particular people who were taking horses under false pretenses, and the track has them listed on the security gates (or so they say).

Interesting article coming out this weekend in the Washington Post Magazine :D[/QUOTE]

The so they say part is true.More like killer buyers are banned…just got off phone with my trainer at CT with a horiffic story of yet another scammer who has made off with a significant number of CT horses over the years under disguise of re-homing re-schooling.
If they don’t have a webb site so you can actually see your horse for resale and follow-ups be wary. No one can move that many horses to real homes.:eek:

[caffeinated]

@judybigredpony;4891771

The so they say part is true.More like killer buyers are banned…just got off phone with my trainer at CT with a horiffic story of yet another scammer who has made off with a significant number of CT horses over the years under disguise of re-homing re-schooling.

The one that was involved in what happened to the pony horse has taken A LOT of horses off the track. I talked to one guy Saturday who said he’d given her something like forty horses over the last couple years.

[DickHertz]

[QUOTE=Laurierace;4891759]
No plan is perfect and covers everything that could possibly ever go wrong, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t have a plan anyway. As far as not wanting to give the horses away, that is absolutely fine. In fact as it stands now I prefer that. When someone comes to me for help rehoming a horse I ask them how much the horse is. If they say any number above a dollar I wish them luck and send them on their way. I have no issue with anyone selling a horse, but that doesn’t mean I am going to help them do it. So that leaves the freebies. The sound ones I network and post here. The unsound ones I give them some ideas but tell them I can’t personally help with placing unsound horses for the reasons I stated in an earlier post. If Penn National choses my facility for their transition farm then I would be in a position to help the unsound ones (from Penn only) because Penn National would be paying me to do so.[/QUOTE]

If Penn National pays you to do this I will officially change the thread title and remove Business as Usual.

[judybigredpony]

"If Penn National choses my facility for their transition farm then I would be in a position to help the unsound ones (from Penn only) because Penn National would be paying me to do so." Laurierac.

And by unsound you mean fixable or forever broken?

I have a tough enough time selling horses who will actually pass a full PPE for intended use. What will those guys go do? Not picking a fight or dissing but wouldn’t dollars and resources be best spent on horses who will fuly recover and or just need some time to re adjust and get over being sore. Not onse who are truly broke, require surgery and protracted length of time off, to only recover to some partial use?
Whats the cut off??

[judybigredpony]

[QUOTE=DickHertz;4891787]
If Penn National pays you to do this I will officially change the thread title and remove Business as Usual.[/QUOTE]

Ditto and I will be in line behind you Laurie signing up…to get paid for what I already do…Yippee…

[Laurierace]

[QUOTE=judybigredpony;4891789]
"If Penn National choses my facility for their transition farm then I would be in a position to help the unsound ones (from Penn only) because Penn National would be paying me to do so." Laurierac.

And by unsound you mean fixable or forever broken?

I have a tough enough time selling horses who will actually pass a full PPE for intended use. What will those guys go do? Not picking a fight or dissing but wouldn’t dollars and resources be best spent on horses who will fuly recover and or just need some time to re adjust and get over being sore. Not onse who are truly broke, require surgery and protracted length of time off, to only recover to some partial use?
Whats the cut off??[/QUOTE]

What I meant by stating that we would help all the horses from Penn whether they were sound or unsound is that no horse would be turned away due to their soundness or lack there of. All horses will be accepted and evaluated and more or less taken off the owner/trainers hands. As far as which horses get euthanized versus which horses get rehabbed and retrained I imagine that decision will be made by the trainer they hire and their vets. As stated in an earlier post I believe permanently unsound horses should be euthanized and resources allocated to the horses that do have a legitimate chance to be a useful riding horse for many years to come but again, I don’t forsee that being my decision to make. I know they really want to find a facility much closer than mine which I completely understand but wanted to let them know that I am available if they don’t find anything else.

[take_a_deep_breathe]

Turning for Home

Now how does Philly Park handle the really cripple and unsound horses? Do they euthanize or do they try to find homes as pasture pets for the bad ones?

[brightskyfarm]

sounds like a great offer!