Asurebet1 — I dont know the workings of this NV’s group. If this is part of their program, then yes, I disagree with breeding more!
I am not advocating NV’s but do see it as a monitor over SB’s actions…and at least she isnt running wild with her ideas…and yes, it’s common knowledge this is set up as her personal outlet.
There already is a RACE fund in place that they refuse to use, to fund, to adapt or adopt through … why? Murray pointed this out and even asked why?..no answer. ---- No Matter at this point . SB is going to put together a program best suited to her needs first… everyone else is secondary.
Damned if you do, and damned if you don’t.
These racetrack sponsored-supported programs are very new to the industry, but should be commended for not shoving off the problem to those outside the industry to pick up the pieces.
We all go through growing pains. They are doing something, rather than posting under aliases and complaining non-stop. Anyone who thinks they can do better–start taking in some of these horses yourselves and put your money where your mouth is…
It is expensive, time-consuming, heartbreaking–and Penn National and their HBPA should be praised for getting on board with the “we take care of our own” mentality.
Can you all finally praise them for what they ARE doing, rather than fault them for what they have not done?
After reading pages and pages of nameless people faulting everyone and everything, I’d think you’d all welcome the break and just sit back, take a few breaths, and see what happens.
Please take the time to visit Dicks blog spot …
here he tells the story of Contrary…
and gives an outline of last nights meeting.
He explains the committee he has signed onto and hopes for its work.
’
http://businessasusualdickhertz.blogspot.com/
[QUOTE=Barbara L.;4977241]
Damned if you do, and damned if you don’t.
These racetrack sponsored-supported programs are very new to the industry, but should be commended for not shoving off the problem to those outside the industry to pick up the pieces.
We all go through growing pains. They are doing something, rather than posting under aliases and complaining non-stop. Anyone who thinks they can do better–start taking in some of these horses yourselves and put your money where your mouth is…
It is expensive, time-consuming, heartbreaking–and Penn National and their HBPA should be praised for getting on board with the “we take care of our own” mentality.
Can you all finally praise them for what they ARE doing, rather than fault them for what they have not done?
After reading pages and pages of nameless people faulting everyone and everything, I’d think you’d all welcome the break and just sit back, take a few breaths, and see what happens.[/QUOTE]
^^^^^
THIS!!!
The bold was added by me, as I have, and will continue to do so when it is finaincially feasible for me to do so----each of my pony horses with the exception of one is a horse OT, whether it is a TB or a QH is neither here nor there-- but I take my riding horses from the ones that no one else wants. Some make it to be ponies, some do not, but each and every one is loved and cared for while they are with me, and if they are not suitable for what I do, they find other careers for which they are suitable.
[B]
Anyone who thinks they can do better–start taking in some of these horses yourselves and put your money where your mouth is…
[/B]
I do PinkD and successfully I might add.
The problem is you can’t shove them thru. the 1st 30 days they de-tox, the next 60 their feet start to get over racing trauma. Not all but a majority. Especially these that will be surrendered.
Volunteers to school and ride the horses. Now there’s a scary thought. Where is the consitancy going to come from, who will evaluate the riders, who the heck is going to carry the insurance?? Volunteers are great but have to have back-up, back-up, back-up. They are volunteers, they burn-out, loose the passion, have other life issues that interfere, no transport, school, boyfriends, jobs, kids.
Who will make sure the saddles are a good fit?? You have to have tack, and bits , and saddle pads and bridles and training gear, round pens, a free school jump pen is absolutey a must for saftey and evaluation.
You can’t make blanket statements the horses will go thru one end and out the other in any time frame.
Also the prices, OK so just imagine the buyer for a horse in that price range…Camps, backyarders, most likely people who will be 1st to surrender horse back to program.
you have to use your head and price the horse so the buyer 1. can afford to buy 2.And attract a certain level of buyer who “Can” afford to keep horse.
Sorry Barbara but I’ve witnessed 1st hand Erins shoving horses thru one door and out the other for $300. and you get a $300. horse.
No your program isn’t bad but overwhelmed with horses.
The trainers who have the better sounder more desirable horses will still send them thru CANTER. And still get the $1,000. upwards.
This program is going to potential become a glorifed one way paid ticket.
I speak from absolute real day to day in the trenches knowledge of what will and won’t sell and what kinds of buyers you can expect for $400- $800. horse.
and anyone who thinks that a program can feed house insure and pay basic expenses per head is just on another planet for $300. month. My basic cost per head before I amatorize in taxes, electric, insurance, equipment replacement fees is WAY more than $10.00 a day…
And if you want these graduates to go on and be Ambassadors for your program you won’t without doing it right.
No not all graudate will be a Devon Champion or a Rolex winner. Most will just be well loved pleasure horses.
But to maximize their potential and put them into the right hands is crucial.
To open it up to volunters and inconsistent training is not in the best interest of the program. Oh the horses will survive they survived racing, but do you want a shove thru get rid of program or become a “Model” for what it really can be.
Feel free to PM me if you want proof I know from where I speak…Oh and just in case I in now way want to run your program, I have enough to do already. I just hate to see it become self serving program to pay lip service and shut some people up.
And if you haven’t done the job…and SB you haven’t, can’t don’t and won’t…then get your LOCAL Knowledgable people involved.
You have Top Caliber true horseman with REAL show horse experiance…Steff Tate for one and yes Bobby Latshaws another.
Model trainers like Murray Rojas who consistantly places/sells horse who go onto new jobs.
Wake-up…Penn National SHAME SHAME SHAME…Business as Usual once again you cow towed and kissed up with out even attempting to allow local people who know your target markets to even have a voice.
you once agai showed your complete and utter ignorance and are attempting to do something you have no experiance in.
Instead of sending out a diversified panel to see how every program works bring it back for a round table dicussion, invite and involve those of us who actually make a living doing this. You made it a covert operation behind closed doors to have SB present at a meeting where no one was given a voice.
Why don’t you just fold your tent Omar. Close the track get rid of the horses cause you sure as heck don’t want it, and don’t want to make it better.
Burn me, ban me, bite me…Penn I have no fear of you or SB you can’t hurt me.
I have a nice business that doens’t need you or have to pay lip service to your ilk.
Total 100% shame and a sham you once again threw up at your horseman…it takes more than 1 trainer to make a track go round.
SB will stay there forever cause no other track will suck up as blatantly as Penn does to her.
I do what PinkD and Judybigredpony do…
If a horse doesn’t make it as a pony…then its reschooled for whatever discipline suits it best. I have horses in the hunt fields in Md., trail and family horses, western weekend campers, CTR’s! It can be done, but it takes time, lots of time, and a consistant program. No, they arent $300 horses either… however, there isnt much profit left except enough to get started on the next horse that needs.
I placed one last month...... 2 on Monday, and moving one to the farm today.....only those who have done this know that it takes hours of networking, hours of horse work, people work, and even more hours in follow-ups. I've been doing this for the 6years I've been at PN /'a lifetime otherwise-- I can tell you that today, horses arent going to move in 30-60 days, even priced at $300/ even priced at FREE. It also takes professional riders who have ridden these disciplines to ready a horse for those markets.
Im a bit stunned at the immensity of this project... and not sure where I see the feasibility of it all. Im just going to
pray it works in some way-- to rehome tb’s, to stop the needless slaughter and put the kill buyers out of business that frequent PN. If it does only that, then, in my book, its working. Its a start.
I didn’t say that they had all the answers…sometimes you have to start a project and tweak it from there.
They have the very experienced and well-respected New Vocations at their side helping them through this, and Anna and her group will be able to let them know if it is working according to the original plan. If not, they will go back and fix it.
It is a starting point, and while there is no way they can really “ease on into it,” due to the sheer numbers of horses that I am guessing will need to be taken in, they are attacking the problem head on, and I respect them for that.
I was just asking to give them a chance, is all…
A Chance, A Chance…this program is going to be one sided one way…their way…and take this to the bank, they aren’t going to be told or advised on anything. Its a for show, if SB and DW and DB really wanted to find out they would have formed a panel like I mentioned, looked into what the market will bear, take applications to see who is qualified out there to ride and re-school. They would know it takes more than 30-60 days.
Yes the 1st step is a complete vet examination, but they also need complete surrender of vet information and a list of drugs on board.
Horses needing Chip surgery will need months off to bring them back right not a slam bam 6 weeks and off to races job.
Ask SB Dw or DW when was the last time the actually saw or looked at a OTTB program. Whats their professional working knowledge of re-training and OTTB. A good horseman who has his own farm knows they 90 days of R&R and de-tox, liver kleene, Power Paked, teeth floated, feet,addressed shoes off behind new comfortable supporting wide webb (preferably) aluminum fronts, some of these horses will have no sole. The farriers tend to carve them out and shoes to small wall trimmed to fit shoe. They aren’t ready to be ridden. The feet alone are 6-12 weeks to start new growth and toughen the sole.
They need joint suppliments and lower protien food, most will need ulcer meds.
Come on that all takes money and time.
Their ideas don’t address any of this…
Dick and the HBPA meeting
This is from Dicks blog:
Topic:
Horse Adoption: Beattie did a good job outlining the program with New Vocations as well as what was still needed to implement it. It’s a few months away. I specifically asked who was running the program because of my concerns with some of the trainer’s history of horse retirement. Several members raised some good questions including yours truly and the end result was a committee was formed which includes myself and two others not in the HBPA working along with Stephanie Beattie
I've contacted Dick and offered to join his committee ---
to show my support for this fledgling program. I would surmise that like any new program, even with people offering years of experience, it will have to grow and grow up like everything else…one step at a time.
HBPA working along with Stephanie Beattie
Good luck, she should be as far away as possible and leave it to those who actually know what they are doing…looks like crumb tossing to keep quiet to me…Dickie you are a good couragous person don’t cow tow to them…
[QUOTE=SwtVixen;4977102]
Asurebet1 — I dont know the workings of this NV’s group. If this is part of their program, then yes, I disagree with breeding more!
I am not advocating NV’s but do see it as a monitor over SB’s actions…and at least she isnt running wild with her ideas…and yes, it’s common knowledge this is set up as her personal outlet.
There already is a RACE fund in place that they refuse to use, to fund, to adapt or adopt through … why? Murray pointed this out and even asked why?..no answer. ---- No Matter at this point . SB is going to put together a program best suited to her needs first… everyone else is secondary.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I just don’t see how adopting mares out to be bred is helping the situation and what happens to the mares when they can no longer produce? Where do they go? As far as our great HBPA, they did not want to give the RACE Fund program the money it needed. It was a great program that took the horses right from the track to the rescue, no middle man and they paid a small fee to the rescue for each horse. Now they want to go with a program that sounds like it is going to end up costing more, involving more people and who is going to pay the people to be at these farms 24/7? Etc, etc. and you know who is at the helm. No thanks.
I agree with Judy…sounds like a thrown together plan without any realistic thought going in. I just wonder how many horses wont pass the mustard and be put down immediatly, without a real chance to rehab and find a good home.
[QUOTE=judybigredpony;4978464]
A Chance, A Chance…this program is going to be one sided one way…their way…and take this to the bank, they aren’t going to be told or advised on anything. Its a for show, if SB and DW and DB really wanted to find out they would have formed a panel like I mentioned, looked into what the market will bear, take applications to see who is qualified out there to ride and re-school. They would know it takes more than 30-60 days.
Yes the 1st step is a complete vet examination, but they also need complete surrender of vet information and a list of drugs on board.
Horses needing Chip surgery will need months off to bring them back right not a slam bam 6 weeks and off to races job.
Ask SB Dw or DW when was the last time the actually saw or looked at a OTTB program. Whats their professional working knowledge of re-training and OTTB. A good horseman who has his own farm knows they 90 days of R&R and de-tox, liver kleene, Power Paked, teeth floated, feet,addressed shoes off behind new comfortable supporting wide webb (preferably) aluminum fronts, some of these horses will have no sole. The farriers tend to carve them out and shoes to small wall trimmed to fit shoe. They aren’t ready to be ridden. The feet alone are 6-12 weeks to start new growth and toughen the sole.
They need joint suppliments and lower protien food, most will need ulcer meds.
Come on that all takes money and time.
Their ideas don’t address any of this…[/QUOTE]
That is because they want to run them in and out within 30 to 60 days which we all know is preposterous and I guess the rest will be put down if they need any time so that is their solution after all of their brainstorming.
[QUOTE=Acertainsmile;4979444]
I agree with Judy…sounds like a thrown together plan without any realistic thought going in. I just wonder how many horses wont pass the mustard and be put down immediatly, without a real chance to rehab and find a good home.[/QUOTE]
Most likely a lot of them which is not a solution for all horses and is unfair to the ones that deserve the time. They wont get any of my horses. The next HBPA election cannot come soon enough for me.
dick on his committee IS going to address the mare/breeding issue
" Some of the issues to be addressed include but are not limited to:
Adopting mares to Quarter Horse breeders - this bred is way overproduced and it raises a moral question about contributing to the overall problem of too many horses
I guess I should have posted it all.
Heres the rest of Dicks statement
The estimated number of retired horses is 200 horses. I think the number is conservative as do others, but if the people who are currently using Canter and other means continue to do so the number may not be far fetched.
The funding estimate needed to retire 200 horses is $150,000. It’s almost impossible to put an exact figure until the program is actually implemented so the plan is to start the program small and then build from there.
The funding has not been decided. A $10 per start fee was discussed and a few trainers feel they should not have to pay the fee if they retire their horse on their own. I say if you want to play the game, you need to pony up the $10 per start. Maybe people who don’t drive feel they shouldn’t have to pay taxes that go toward building roads, but the reality is horses being sent to Bruce Rotz and Brian Moore is a problem that all horseman need to help fight even if you currently retire properly. Or put another way, if you make 40 starts a year and you retire all of your horses properly, do you have an issue paying $400 to the greater good if you know it helped prevent Trainer A or Trainer B from sending a couple of horses to the meat man? If I have one issue with some of the people at Penn is that there is a me-me-me philosophy which is not healthy overall. In reality it should be Horse-Me-The Game Overall"
http://businessasusualdickhertz.blogspot.com/
You know they haven’t a clue what our regional market is all about.
we are in the heart of Eventing and hunter/jumper land with some fine world class dressage trainers.
There is a real potential in the right hands for this program to actually make real money to be used to pay for some horses to get a pasture retirement, medical bills etc.
BUT you have to get the right people to do the triage of evaluating horses for a job, head them in the direction and run with it.
There is a good market for nice geldings 16.1-17H 4-6 that fox-hunt staff need as replacements for whip horses. Now you need the foot and bone for the job as well as the right mind set. But you can get $3500-$5k a pop and not even have to take them out with hounds. If you know your clientele and they trust you…how many volunteers can bring that to the table or have the resources.
Eventer same price $3500 - $15K 15.3 - 17h geldings or mares 4-7 for a nice sound well moving horse who has an athletic way of going will pick up points in dressage brave but not stupid for XC and carefull in stadium. Most never go past training level and an OTTB can do that in his sleep. Again a good working knowledge and contacts in that field, several big time trainers with alot of students who will work with a program.
H/J market must be very correct awesome moving horse w/ a way diffrent jump than an eventer or show jumper. and so many nuances with in each discipline, equitation, show jumper. Lots of levels from local thru “AA”.
Pony club, polo cross, gymkania, polo all have niche type horses.
Quality not Quantity sells, its the diffence between the dollar store and TJ MAXX. One sells dollar items of dubious quality the other sell Quality at a discount
We are not talking major re-trains here…W/T/C both directions do a lead change, move of your leg, stay out on the rail, keep their shoulders up under themselves, have brakes,accept the bit, keep their mouths closed and jump a few basic grids confidently.
Stand on cross ties to be groomed, clipped,shod and tacked up quietly and load into a 2 horse straight load or step up slant with confidence. Not rocket science most of these horse will do this once given a chance.
Do not let this become a cheap low rent operation, by doing it right you will attract horses of quality. Not every horse has to be a $800. sale.
By having the best and brightest people you have so much chance to do so much good for OTTB…
There is no need for growing pains if you use the resources and minds you have at your disposal. And you have to have the right equipment.
I seriously don’t see SB and her possee doing it right its going to be all show no go.
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck its a duck!!!
I feel my wallet opening to go buy a Penn race horse, I feel it in my bones…:yes::yes:
to my knowledge I hear that several subpoenas were delivered to individuals at Penn national earlier today. to the [person] who was on here spouting off about the investigation being over, well, DREAM ON!! In fact, i hear that [one person] is feeling rather uneasy at the moment. why is he calling people and apologizing? HHmmmm! that seems odd, since when do you apologize if you are truly innocent???
contrary, a bus, and the 5th
Interesting that this statement wasnt in the other interviews, but was included in the bloodhorse
Beattie, in an interview July 12, said Parker’s claim that he told her he would take the horse upon its retirement isn’t true.
“It has been a long three months,” Beattie said of the situation, which made her a popular topic on Internet chat rooms. “I don’t send horses to killers. I don’t believe in that. My reputation has been trashed, and I’m not happy about it.”
Beattie, who operates large stable, said she has given away about 110 horses since January 2009 and “can tell you where all the horses are.” A few, including Contrary, fell through the cracks, Beattie acknowledged.
She said the horses were to be shipped to a retirement facility in Ohio. She worked through trainer Darrell Delahoussaye, who several months later was kicked off the grounds by Penn National management.
Two of the horses ended up in the entry box at Suffolk Downs in Massachusetts.
“When there going to a retirement home, you don’t think they’ll race again,” Beattie said. “I didn’t call the retirement place, and if that’s my ignorance, it’s my fault. Did I trust Darrell Delahoussaye? Yes. He showed up here, got licensed, and got stalls. I’m a trusting person.”
Steph throws DD under the bus.......
^^^^^^^^
oh, and Dick wants to remind everyone what the 5th amendment actually is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
here is a full explanation....and as how it pertains to a grand jury investigation.[QUOTE=judybigredpony;4979519]
You know they haven’t a clue what our regional market is all about.
we are in the heart of Eventing and hunter/jumper land with some fine world class dressage trainers.
There is a real potential in the right hands for this program to actually make real money to be used to pay for some horses to get a pasture retirement, medical bills etc.
BUT you have to get the right people to do the triage of evaluating horses for a job, head them in the direction and run with it.
There is a good market for nice geldings 16.1-17H 4-6 that fox-hunt staff need as replacements for whip horses. Now you need the foot and bone for the job as well as the right mind set. But you can get $3500-$5k a pop and not even have to take them out with hounds. If you know your clientele and they trust you…how many volunteers can bring that to the table or have the resources.
Eventer same price $3500 - $15K 15.3 - 17h geldings or mares 4-7 for a nice sound well moving horse who has an athletic way of going will pick up points in dressage brave but not stupid for XC and carefull in stadium. Most never go past training level and an OTTB can do that in his sleep. Again a good working knowledge and contacts in that field, several big time trainers with alot of students who will work with a program.
H/J market must be very correct awesome moving horse w/ a way diffrent jump than an eventer or show jumper. and so many nuances with in each discipline, equitation, show jumper. Lots of levels from local thru “AA”.
Pony club, polo cross, gymkania, polo all have niche type horses.
Quality not Quantity sells, its the diffence between the dollar store and TJ MAXX. One sells dollar items of dubious quality the other sell Quality at a discount
We are not talking major re-trains here…W/T/C both directions do a lead change, move of your leg, stay out on the rail, keep their shoulders up under themselves, have brakes,accept the bit, keep their mouths closed and jump a few basic grids confidently.
Stand on cross ties to be groomed, clipped,shod and tacked up quietly and load into a 2 horse straight load or step up slant with confidence. Not rocket science most of these horse will do this once given a chance.
Do not let this become a cheap low rent operation, by doing it right you will attract horses of quality. Not every horse has to be a $800. sale.
By having the best and brightest people you have so much chance to do so much good for OTTB…
There is no need for growing pains if you use the resources and minds you have at your disposal. And you have to have the right equipment.
I seriously don’t see SB and her possee doing it right its going to be all show no go.
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck its a duck!!!
I feel my wallet opening to go buy a Penn race horse, I feel it in my bones…:yes::yes:[/QUOTE]
A-men, AMEN, AA-men … can I haven an AMEN!!! :yes::yes::yes:
I hear the worry about retraining … well, I dont think there will be much of that going on … .most of the horses wont be capable of much retraining …or even marketable. Iwould suspect the majority will cross the rainbow…
The trainers that have sound,viable horses for rehoming, new careers will find people like PinkD, judy, and brightskyfarm to
do that type of marketing… who will keep the value of the horse intact… not for sale for $800/ and the $800 buyer-- most of those folks will cheap even further and simply buy at new holland.
There will always be a good market for well (re)trained horses and its my take that the trainers will even more seek those to assist in those placements.
Dick, SB and the folks running the new PN retraining program willl have their hands full of simply managing those horses whose lives depend on the initial vetting.