Buying a horse with kissing spine.

This is an iffy one because kissing spine is one of those things where you can have clinical signs but no symptoms. With the new focus on imaging the back, I think we are finding more kissing spine (it is not that it is “more prevalent” now, but we have both the means and the inclination to diagnose it). There are some horses with clinical signs and it does nothing to impede any of their work. On the other hand, there are horses who manifest symptoms under saddle. Some of these can be fixed via surgery. Sometimes the surgery is not successful. Having known two horses whose riding careers were completely (or mostly) ended due to this (despite extreme veterinary intervention & physical therapy attempts) I would be very leery about buying a horse with clinical signs even if there are no symptoms under saddle.

Mitigating factor: If the horse is already in a high level of work (demanding level of work) and has remained sound/capable of performing the work. If it’s a young/younger horse that’s never really been pushed under saddle, I would pass. On the other hand if it’s a 15yo who has had xrays indicating KS for the last five or so years, but has continued to do upper level work? Sure, I’d buy that horse.

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I’m generally one that is willing to take some PPE risks, but I don’t know that I would on “severe” x-rays in this case. KS is so hard to manage if it does become an issue. What does your vet say? One thought would be to get a second (or third) opinion on the x-rays and the level of work the horse is in and the level or work you intend for it would be factors as well.

Generally when deciding whether or not to take a vetting risk I ask myself: “Could I find this same horse, within a similar price range, without the problem if I keep looking?” If the answer is yes to that, then the answer to taking the risk is generally “no.” YMMV

“Mild” incidental KS on radiographs, could be a maybe if I had more than one set of x-rays proving over the span of X amount of time the disease had not progressed.

“Severe”? Pass.

My experience has been horses with moderate to severe KS rarely have long-lasting riding careers. KS causes secondary issues, usually in stifles, suspensories, and hocks; it makes it very difficult to manage the horse’s soundness.

Even if you treat the KS, you still are battling with undoing years of compensation; it’s very common for horses post lig-snip or operation to have to be retired because of suspensory or stifle injuries. It can be even harder to keep them comfortable, either for retirement or work, as their bodies are used to being held a certain way, making them very poor PT patients!

Having a horse with KS, and having owned, ridden, and known him for the last seven years (and also having watched him go from young horse, to mid teens), I would tell you to pass.

KS does not get better. As they enter their teens it becomes more and more difficult to manage their comfort, and still keep them usable for riding, or even sound enough for retirement. This is just me being a pragmatist; my horse is 11, and likely nearing the end of his riding career…

It is not a cut-and-dry disease either; you’ll have good and bad days, that make the decision to retire difficult.

The more experience I have with KS, the less I truly believe a horse with clinical KS findings on x-ray is truly asymptomatic.

KS rarely makes a horse limp in the beginning… so many people miss it. And most horses will go along with a mild soreness, out of the generosity of their own heart (a TB particularly) – which means most of them don’t even let on how much something is bothering them until they can’t physically handle the discomfort anymore.

Sellers usually don’t pick up on it at all, as they don’t have the horse long enough where they can decipher the horse’s quirks as what they are: manifestations of discomfort. Or, they don’t own the horse much past its “green” stages, and don’t see these issues crop up in schooling – particularly anything past Training/1st level dressage, where KS issues become very obvious undersaddle as it requires full use of the back and not just W/T/C in a frame.

Mild KS symptoms are usually fairly “benign” to an unknowing observer - maybe some coming/going back pain, maybe being a bit backsore after a jump school, holding a tail up and out during movement, weaker stifles, fussiness being girthed or saddled, ulcer issues, needing a bit more time to warm up, “being cold backed”, etc.

TL;DR being, I’ve seen enough long-term cases where I don’t think KS on a radiograph is incidental. I’d pass.

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Beowulf, I feel that may be directed at the comments I made. I have asked many of the top level sport horses vets that come through here to do vettings on their opinions because it is truly something we are finding more frequently due to the ability to take good radiographs in the field. Their observation in following horses at the top levels of sport through their careers is that they have not seen it progress to physical issues like you are indicating in the majority of horses. I thought the same as you that it would get worse over time but they seemed to indicate that the research shows that is not the case. They said in most cases of high performance issues they tend to find it upon a PPE exam when one is being sold onto to a new home after doing the job for many years with no issues and since they horse is obviously doing a job they feel okay about it.

Now I don’t know how I feel about racing being a “job” but generally I feel like dressage helps the back compared to racing so if racing hasn’t caused them pain I don’t jump to the conclusion that higher level dressage work will cause an issue. Generally good flatwork will stretch and strengthen the back.

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The other thing is that like all things in horses different vets have different opinions. I always believe in going to a sport horses vet that I truly trust that has a lot of experience in the discipline I want to do and asking them to review the xrays. It never ceases to amaze me how you can get such different opinions on the same set of films which is why I think establishing good relationships with vets is important. I LOVE vets…truly I do but sometimes I read vet reports and think OMG I would never buy that horse based on the way this report sounds. Another vet comes along and does a vetting and the horse gets a glowing review. It is just the horse world but it sure has taught me to always seek other opinions.

Horses at the top level of the sport generally have some important differences. One, access to chiro, physio and good sport horse vets those out in Bumfuck may not have. Also pro riders who (hopefully) know how to ride in a more soft balanced way. AND usually have other people who own their horses so that when the shit hits the fan they aren’t stuck with a crippled animal and they can move on to other horses. Harder to do that with us worker bees of more modest means who can only afford one horse. Great comments though and hugely appreciated.

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@Jleegriffith

Not direct comments to you, just comments on my overall experience with the disease in sport horses, both as an owner and someone who takes care of horses clinically diagnosed with the disease.

I wish there was more understanding about the disease, as there is a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding about KS in general.

You’re good. I like the horses you sell and don’t think you’re doing anything shady. :encouragement:

KS is just as common in WBs as it is in TBs. Incidentally, I have much more experience with it in (client) WBs and ISHs than I do in TBs, so most of what I refer to comes from that.

KS as a diagnosis is not good news for a dressage career. I know very few serious dressage buyers that will consider a horse with KS on PPE. A horse in pain can’t work over their back, so, they never build up the strength they need to overcome the poor posture/compensational habits they develop. It can become a serious factor once you go up the levels and require real collection, which is difficult for a horse that is in pain. It also makes the real lateral work difficult, as they tend to be very protective of their back and side and will not want to “push through” the pain.

KS can be managed, but it’s usually difficult to keep the horse in long-term work as the therapies proven to help KS are expensive, KS can’t be reversed, and KS usually causes secondary issues related to the disease (early wear/tear on suspensories and stifles being primary, SI inflammation being secondary).

I know more horses retired after treatment, than horses that continued to be able to work.

It really depends on the horse’s personality, the treatments, the management, and how severe the KS is… but it is not something that “riding correctly” can fix, so beware the “Art2Ride” people. My two cents, they’re as kooky as Parellians.

If I remember correctly, the most recent study about clinically diagnosed KS long-term is that there is quite a high wastage rate after treatment (IIRC… something like 33%?).

Finding KS usually isn’t incidental. Barring PPEs, most owners I’ve dealt with have discovered the KS as a last ditch effort trying to figure out behavioral issues or soundness issues with their horse. Sometimes these findings are in conjunction with neck issues.

It’s been my experience that the most obvious symptom is usually behavioral, but not all KS horses buck – and most people assume KS = bucking or obviously bad behavior. There are other subtle behaviors associated with KS that should be considered clinical symptoms, not limited to the following:

  • refusal to be caught in paddock / not wanting to be caught in stall (this is the one I hear owners reporting very frequently)
  • gradual loss of confidence under saddle
  • decrease in performance
  • difficulty jumping, or change in willingness to jump
  • girthiness
  • increased breathing/heart-rate when tacking up
  • ulcers
  • moving or attempting to walk away during saddling
  • toe drag
  • postural changes (standing close behind, or standing under)

Of course, some of the above symptoms, are symptoms of other issues…

That being said… seeing remodeling in a 16 y/o… is very different than seeing it in a 5 y/o. I likely would not be too concerned to find mild remodeling in a 16 y/o that has been working 2nd/3rd level for the last 12 years… but I would likely pass on the 5 y/o with the same findings. There’s so many variations of the disease; remodeling is one thing… over/interlapping is something very different.

Since you mentioned UL horses… I’ll throw in my two cents, being someone who was a WS in several UL barns; some of them had KS… they were not asymptomatic. Most of them needed serious therapies (magnawave blankets, shockwave, therapad, chiro, massage, eurocizers, constant injections, etc) just to keep them going – the person that coined “UL horses are held together by zip-ties and duct tape” is not wrong… And honestly? Most of them had dangerous quirks that we put up with - biting, kicking, needing two handlers to saddle…

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That would be a hard pass for me, even with the ability to retire the horse at home if needed.

especially if you board, are you really in a situation to pay board for a unrideable horse for the next 13 to 15 years? Will you be able to afford a horse to ride on top of that expense?

I know at least a half dozen people personally who have had kissing spine end a horses career and only 1 who was able to be managed. That management included special saddles, frequent and expensive vet care, and all sorts of other specialized care to keep the animal comfortable. Probably just as much as board on two horses would be, if not more.

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My first horse was diagnosed with KS after months of trying to address his back issues, and eventually had to be retired to a trail home. His x-rays weren’t even that bad, he had injections, shockwave, mesotherapy, you name it, and nothing helped. Meanwhile, my vet’s WB mare had pretty bad KS when she was x-rayed for on a pre-purchase, but never showed symptoms. Go figure.

Current horse is a TB, long back, kinda downhill, hunter’s bump – all the right ingredients for a KS diagnosis. Have I had him x-rayed? Nope, and I don’t see any reason to as he’s 17 and my forever horse. He’s happy, jumps well, and is comfortable in his job, but I’ve definitely treated him as if he were a KS horse: shockwave, chiro, acupuncture, osphos, Adequan, saddle fit, working long and low (although the last two should be compulsory for any horse, KS or not! :lol:), etc. Yes, his back is sensitive, but it also depends on the palpation - I’ve seen vets who make him practically sit on the floor because they literally wrench one side to the other, and others who do it more diligently and he doesn’t react. Vets who are back experts are the ones I’d listen to over the GP vets who can force a reaction out of any horse.

If it were me, I would pass, but I’m gun shy. I bought my guy after a free lease that lasted for four years, so I knew what I was getting into, but not everyone has that option. :winkgrin:

It should be noted that my vet has said numerous times: “I’ve never seen a horse that had suspensory injuries who DIDN’T have back issues,” e.g. treat and maintain the back and you’re less likely to have hind end problems. Those who have back problems end up compensating with their hind end to address the discomfort in their back, which makes them more likely to have an injury.

I agree with the above.

It really does help to do research on the topic. There are papers out there that suggest over a third of TB’s and WB’s have spinous process impingement (KS). It is common in cats, dogs and humans as well. It is far more prevalent than many people appreciate. And there certainly are horses competing at top levels that have KS. These high end horses are often insured and the insurance companies require a robust set of radiographs to write policies. That is one of the reasons why we know many top performance horses have KS.

KS is used to describe a radiograph of the spine that is not within “normal limits”. It doesn’t predict a horse will be crippled, in pain or otherwise unable to perform a job.

If the horse was in work and asymptomatic, it would NOT be a deal-breaker for me. Consulting with a top vet that specializes in your chosen discipline is a good start.

It is cliché, but you cannot ride the radiographs. They are an tool to be used, not a master to be governed by.

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Top level horses are getting lots and lots of therapy and maintenance though. One of my vets (FEI vet) told me he is injecting some of the GP horses he treats every 6 weeks to keep them going. Mesotherapy and shockwave are common KS treatments but costs here are up near $1k. If the horse is a 6 figure GP horse that is a drop in the bucket but probably not for an average horse. Vets can treat most conditions now successfully but how much can the average rider spend on a regular basis to maintain a condition like KS?

It would also depend on how much the buyer is willing to trust the seller. How does the buyer know the horse has been in regular work and has not had any recent treatment for it? The OP said the horse was “allegedly” healthy so it doesn’t sound like she is very familiar with the history of the horse.

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“Severe” KS is one thing I would never say OK to before purchasing. No way. Watched way too many of my friends go through the downward spiral of their competition career to find out later that the horse has KS. I think a lot of the time it doesn’t effect them until a bit older (10+) or a heavy riding career.

It’s hard enough to keep their backs happy, with saddle fit etc. An added element that you will always be questioning and working around is not something I would want to take on. If I owned the horse already, that would be different. But everything after that point will be spent on riding correctly, saddle fit, etc etc.

Huge gamble and horses are already a gamble enough.

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One important piece of information missing here…does OP own or have access to a place to retire this horse if it becomes unrideable or are they a single horse owner who boards out? Can they park the horse inexpensively and get another or is this potentially the only horse they can afford and might be paying for over the next 20 years whether it’s rideable or not?

Really don’t want to suggest somebody acquire a horse they might have to make a choice to euthanize so they can have another horse or because, down the road, they encounter life circumstances and have to get rid of the horse expense.

Sooo…if OP has property, maybe it’s worth the gamble but only if it is in work and going well and soundly in that work. If OP boards out and can only afford one horse? It’s a rock solid pass.

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another where it totally depends. KS is SOOOOOO common. It isn’t always a problem and is often VERY manageable. You would be SHOCKED how many upper level horses have it…hell how many horses have it in general. Some horses it is career ending…some it never bothers…most are somewhere in between. I wouldn’t walk away from a horse just because KS…I would want other indications that it bothers them and it would depend on location and how bad…and yes, I might use it to negotiate the price a bit.

ETA: And no…not all treatments are super expensive. KS does best when horses are kept in consistent correct work. When you know its an issue, you might have some initial costs to treat…but there a lot out there that once you got them fit, you can maintain well not with high cost. It’s recognizing what you have and knowing how to treat and keep them comfortable…and it isn’t rocket science. Lots of long and low, core strengthens and yes…good saddle fit. There are LOTS of alternatives.

I’m someone who has dealt with it a LOT. (Both when I only had one or two horses and boarded to now with a lot of horses and my own farm). Only one horse that I had was it truly career ending and she was super severe. I’ve also done the new surgery on one horse and it was interesting. Not super expensive as far as things go and not invasive…I would do it again on the right horse. Obviously I wouldn’t buy a horse to just do the surgery on it but my point is it wasn’t a Hugh deal (as most horses…something else will be the issue anyway). I wish people were more educated as well…and realize that MOST horses have KS to some degree.

In answer to the OP though…I would want my sport’s vet opinion. It does typically involve more than one place on the spine…that is normal and doesn’t make it severe…if they are overlapping significantly…that is severe and you probably wouldn’t be able to ride the horse.

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Most horses will have some degree of remodeling with or without KS. That’s not a red flag to me.

Some people will see remodeling and leap to conclusions that it is KS, including vets… but I think most posters here (as well as the OP) are referring to horses with rads that show overlapping/kissing processes, not just remodeling.

Those with FB, who want to see through the eyes of people who own horses with KS, should join this group:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/101279456709105/?fref=nf

Or this one, if you speak German:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1403458653251646/

The personal accounts on both of these FB groups is very sobering. Tons of examples (with x-rays included) of people having to retire their horses because of “mild KS” here.

P.P.S - therapies for KS are expensive - at least in my amateur middle-class budget. Here’s a breakdown of my KS horse’s last vet visit - we do this twice a year (vet would prefer every 2 months for the meso + SI/back injections, and I can’t afford that):

Mesotherapy: $300
U/S Guided Injections: $300
Robaxin: $75
Previcox: $80
Hock Injections: $800

Maintaining this KS horse’s comfort is pretty expensive, all things considered. He needs shoes all around ($200) 365 days of the year, pads, and regular chiro work too… He’s not a cheap horse, and if my vet had his way, we’d also be doing shockwave ($400-1000) and hydrotherapies ($$$$$$$) to keep what is a pleasure horse comfortable.

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Beowulf…what I think you are missing is that of COURSE if it bugs a horse…it may be a big issue but you can’t always tell. I’ve also know SEVERAL horses with over lapping and kissing processes that is DIDNT bother…and a lot are out there who no one has taken a back X-ray of because they don’t have any issues. I knew one advanced horse that you couldn’t get a needle in to inject even if you wanted. THAT is why some vets are saying KS isn’t the huge issue that people say it is. It is what some point too…but there are lots of horses out there with perfect back xrays that have sore backs…and horses with scary xrays that it doesn’t bother. And I have no idea what the OP is looking at…I hear people say severe when others would say mild. My point was NOT all horses with “KS” are walking cripples and some who have it…you wouldn’t even know.

ETA: And I have horses who need all of the above (or stifle instead of hock…which cost more) and shockwave…who have BEAUTIFUL back xrays (no KS).

I have dealt with KS. Hell no! Especially severe, Nope Nope Nope.

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I recently spent $4000 for PPEs of a horse (who I did end up buying), getting basically three opinions from different vets on her rads and the chances of it being KS. It can be a real nightmare. I researched things as best I could, based on her particular x-rays and the level of near-impingement. I took the risk (for reasons mentioned above, and because 2/3 vets didn’t think her back was problematic), however there is no way I would have bought her if the KS were described as “severe”. I agonized over the pre-purchase at the idea of even possible minor-KS. Ask yourself if you could live with having to possibly retire the horse very early, if you have means to do that, and if you would be ok with outright losing the purchase price, in addition to whatever vet bills you’d spend in the meantime. If the horse is otherwise THAT important to you, and all risks can be accepted, then go ahead (this was the thought process I had).

I’m very, very happy with my ultimate decision, though I suppose time will tell. And also, I wouldn’t have given it a second thought if the horse in question weren’t otherwise my total unicorn dream horse.

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Kissing Spines is a CLINICAL diagnosis. You can have close or overlapping vertebra on X-ray, but that does NOT mean the horse has KS. The radiological findings may or may not be a problem in the future. Many (probably upwards of 30%) of horses will have these findings on film, but only a small proportion go on to develop pain.

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I’m not disagreeing with you… I am just pointing out that a lot of the symptoms of KS, are overlooked by both amateurs and professionals… even vets!

Things like being girthy, stressed while tacked, needing a long warm-up, etc… KS is so much more than just “bucking”. Yet people, including owners and sellers, will chalk these up as quirks or habits of the horse.

I’ll say it again – since KS doesn’t tend to make a horse obviously limp until later stages when suspensory and stifles are involved, most people have no clue they are looking at a symptomatic horse.

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