Buying a horse with kissing spine.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

@beowulf

I’m not disagreeing with you… I am just pointing out that a lot of the symptoms of KS, are overlooked by both amateurs and professionals… even vets!

Things like being girthy, stressed while tacked, needing a long warm-up, etc… KS is so much more than just “bucking”. Yet people, including owners and sellers, will chalk these up as quirks or habits of the horse.

I’ll say it again – since KS doesn’t tend to make a horse obviously limp until later stages when suspensory and stifles are involved, most people have no clue they are looking at a symptomatic horse.

And my point is that people don’t always realize their horse is LAME let alone investigate small discomforts. I happen to have great vets and people who work for me and have a good feel. I recognize that MOST behavioral issues is rooted in pain so that is the first thing I try and rule out. And when I have a horse who is girthy, reactive, behind the leg, spooky, cold backed etc…we DO X-ray their backs (as well as many other things). Hell, we pretty much X-ray all of mine from the start and yes, the UL competition horses will get what they need to try and eek out that slightly higher dressage score. And we have found a LOT of horses will have minor remodeling etc. and some more significant interference of the processes. Pretty much all of them really have some level of it. And we DO then treat them as possibly with KS…but it is rare that one needs EXCESSIVE treatment for their backs. Honestly…It costs me less than most of those out there constantly searching for the PERFECT saddle fit…when the reality is their horse probably just needs some minor help for their back that a new saddle will not miraculously cure and some work with the rider off their back to help them strengthen before adding the rider weight.

I am NOT saying that bad KS Is never career ending or never super expensive…but honestly…the horses who I’ve had the most trouble with it, were NOT severe but were of a type of horse that if they have a hang nail they are dying. And they are the type of horse that will be lame all the time not because of KS…but because they have such a low tolerance for any pain. It is really THAT kind of horse you want to avoid (not sure you can figure that out in a PPE) if you don’t want huge vet bills in making them a performance horse because they will only perform well if they feel 100%…and MOST horses and riders do not feel 100% (part of our sport is jumping after a big effort so we want tough horses)… I should have bought stock in Advil myself.

[hamsterpoop]

Appreciate all of the input. One final question. Would this be a condition that a seller should disclose to a potential buyer during the intial questioning about health history? I mean, assuming the seller knew, would it not be reasonable to disclose it given the potential seriousness of the condition?

[Obsidian_Fire]

HELL YES. Whatever the seller knows, they should disclose. That should go without saying! (Although it doesn’t happen as often as it should!)

[caryledee]

IF they know, yes they should definitely disclose. There are a lot of people that don’t x-ray the back though and attribute things like bucking, stiffness to bad behavior rather than a physical problem. Never rely on what a seller tells you, it is up to the buyer to do a thorough PPE and figure out what is going on with the horse.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

@hamsterpoop

Appreciate all of the input. One final question. Would this be a condition that a seller should disclose to a potential buyer during the intial questioning about health history? I mean, assuming the seller knew, would it not be reasonable to disclose it given the potential seriousness of the condition?

If they know. But if horse doesn’t have symptoms and back has not been xrayed there is nothing to disclose.

When I sell a horse, I disclose if I have xrays and am willing to share vet records. Not everyone shares medical records but often that is because they do not have any!

[IronwoodFarm]

Somewhat related. I was selling a horse that was PPE’d but a famous vet. He was able to diagnose KS with his eyes. He also said the horse had broken the tip on a bone as a foal because one side was less developed than the other. Again, with his eyes. No radiographs needed when you have x-ray vision! I was shocked when the buyer gave me this information.

I did the crazy thing by saying this vet was wrong. Sacrilege! In fact, if he had x-rayed the hock (on the side that was slightly less developed) he would have found an OCD lesion and a bone chip. That’s what I did when I leanred there was an issue. I went to a competent vet who used modern veterinary equipment! Bone chip surgery was performed, horse recovered quickly and sold for a good price. She did just fine and never had KS.

Years later this famous vet was a featured speaker at my horse club. He told us all about KS. I found a compelling need to be out of the room while he shared his wisdom with the group.

[endlessclimb]

From a recent COTH article:

"What about horses with soreness or stiffness through the back or kissing spines?

Dr. Gasiorowski: Sore backs, sore necks, there are a lot of complaints to that effect. That’s a complex analysis, but I rarely see a Thoroughbred race horse with strictly back soreness. It’s usually caused by something else. What that something else is could be anything on your whole menu of lamenesses that could affect a Thoroughbred race horse. So while we do see sore-backed horses, that’s usually not the primary problem. If you treat the primary problem, the back soreness often goes away.

When you’re talking about kissing spines, it’s important to determine whether what you see on radiographs is or is not clinically relevant. In our practice, 80% of the abnormal dorsal spinous processes we see on radiographs are non-clinical–they’re turning up on pre-purchase evaluations of horses who appear clinically normal. For the average potential owner, in the absence of clinical signs, I wouldn’t freak out about a radiograph."

https://www.chronofhorse.com/article/5-common-off-track-thoroughbred-injuries-no-problem-or-no-go

[Jleegriffith]

haha too funny Ironwood farm. I sent a horse that I had owned for 2yrs to a PPE. This horse was super duper sound but had a steeplechase career and he had windpuff which I had ultrasounded at New Bolton. This vet without even using diagnostics tools at all tells the buyer the horse has a tendon that was fresh and they shouldn’t buy him. Didn’t even JOG the horse. The buyer had ridden him, jumped him and rode him twice while waiting for their vetting at their farm. I wouldn’t have sent him there if I thought there would be any issues.

Horse comes back and passed full vetting and is still out competing. I still laugh at this famous vet and his lack of actual diagnostic tools used and wonder why his clients don’t question it at all?

[beowulf]

@endlessclimb

From a recent COTH article:

"What about horses with soreness or stiffness through the back or kissing spines?

Dr. Gasiorowski: Sore backs, sore necks, there are a lot of complaints to that effect. That’s a complex analysis, but I rarely see a Thoroughbred race horse with strictly back soreness. It’s usually caused by something else. What that something else is could be anything on your whole menu of lamenesses that could affect a Thoroughbred race horse. So while we do see sore-backed horses, that’s usually not the primary problem. If you treat the primary problem, the back soreness often goes away.

Not for nothing but on a side-note about racing horses and backsore symptoms… Racing is incredibly hard on a horse.

I’ve never gotten a TB from the track that wasn’t backsore to some degree. Nine times out of ten that soreness is work/management related and not related to KS.

Usually, their backsoreness is related to any of the following, sometimes combined –
Very bad shoeing / long toe+underrun heel, which causes tendon soreness, postural changes (precursor to backsoreness), and standing under themselves to protect their thin soles or crushed heels
Stalling and lack of movement, will generally make any horse who works for a living sore, as it increases inflammation – even in areas there is no pathology or injury (such as coffin bone and laminae). In a horse that works hard, who may have some small over-all body complaints in relation to exercise, stalling compounds the inflammation
Rigorous exercise
Muscle soreness
Stifle and/or SI soreness

If you take a look through CANTER or any other rehoming organization, and watch the jog videos, just about every one of the videos will show a horse with some degree of backsoreness. I consider it part & parcel of racing, and generally have seen it go away with improved shoeing, a few weeks of long slow work, and 24/7 turnout.

[bip]

@endlessclimb

From a recent COTH article:

"What about horses with soreness or stiffness through the back or kissing spines?

Dr. Gasiorowski: Sore backs, sore necks, there are a lot of complaints to that effect. That’s a complex analysis, but I rarely see a Thoroughbred race horse with strictly back soreness. It’s usually caused by something else. What that something else is could be anything on your whole menu of lamenesses that could affect a Thoroughbred race horse. So while we do see sore-backed horses, that’s usually not the primary problem. If you treat the primary problem, the back soreness often goes away.

When you’re talking about kissing spines, it’s important to determine whether what you see on radiographs is or is not clinically relevant. In our practice, 80% of the abnormal dorsal spinous processes we see on radiographs are non-clinical–they’re turning up on pre-purchase evaluations of horses who appear clinically normal. For the average potential owner, in the absence of clinical signs, I wouldn’t freak out about a radiograph."

https://www.chronofhorse.com/article/5-common-off-track-thoroughbred-injuries-no-problem-or-no-go

I think the issue is that as a buyer, it’s really difficult to determine whether or not there are clinical symptoms. The horse is for sale. Even a non-suspicious reason like kid going off to college, divorce, human health crisis can be covering up, “well, she probably would have taken him to college with her but he’s kind of cranky”, or “he’s always been difficult to keep comfortable, and with the divorce, it’s too much to manage”. Not to mention if the horse is stepping down a level competitively, it can be totally legitimate! It can also be a sign that the horse is struggling. The sellers may not even be intentionally deceiving potential buyers. I think a lot of pros who have seen tons of horses successfully step down from say Prelim to Novice optimistically assume the horse they are selling for a client will do the same. But from the buyer’s POV, it’s a huge risk (unless they are the sort of buyer who has a few riding horses and an inexpensive, safe place to tuck the ones who don’t work out).

I see a lot of that on his thread. The pros who buy/sell dozens of sound horses a year and have a network for unloading the occasional bad luck underestimate how devastating it is for the one/two horse owner to take a risk - over and above the huge risk of buying any horse - and lose. I think it’s sort of the same for the sport horse vets who are saying it doesn’t become a problem. The serious problem horses stop being their patients, so those don’t stick in their minds the way the ones they are successfully treating, and therefore regularly see do.

[hamsterpoop]

@bip

I see a lot of that on his thread. The pros who buy/sell dozens of sound horses a year and have a network for unloading the occasional bad luck underestimate how devastating it is for the one/two horse owner to take a risk - over and above the huge risk of buying any horse - and lose. I think it’s sort of the same for the sport horse vets who are saying it doesn’t become a problem. The serious problem horses stop being their patients, so those don’t stick in their minds the way the ones they are successfully treating, and therefore regularly see do.

Yes. Pros and ammies run in two different worlds. In my world horses are a lifetime commitment. I get pissed off when I find out I’ve been lied to, either a flat out lie or some lie of omission. Don’t tell me something is “no big deal”. Bullshit, tell me everything and let me deal with my acceptable risk. But you are spot on, how does one get a good clinical history? Anyone can make up a good story, I’ve heard a bunch of them. My old time vet said he can tell when the trainer walks the horse off the trailer that he/she is lying. Their lips are moving. So it’s up to the vets to do the detective work, Thank God for them (and show records).

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Well I’m not a pro. Yes I do sell some horses. And I buy some. But I typically only sell after I’ve put a lot of training into them (unless I’m lucky enough to sell one of my homebreds young). I hope any horse I sell goes to a great forever home and try hard to keep track of them all.

ALL. horses are a risk. All. They can be great under one management and fall apart in a new home. They can be great in a new home. A PPE is just one vets opinion at one moment in time. There is NO guarantee.

and FWIW…I’m More worried when I sell that the buyer will not treat or card for the horse as well as I do. I sell because it is a business…but I want my horses in a good home. No…not all sellers are like that but I think more are than are not.