Buying a young imported Oldenburg. Says "not registered"

[Gr.Prix_Dreamer]

Hi,
I am looking at a 3.5 year old Oldenburg at the end of the month. They have shown me a picture of his papers, they are white, and do not show his name.
I found him on another ad platform and under “Registered” it says NO.

The trainer who has him, imported him from a company that she hasn’t used before. I found his original ad, so I have an idea of what they have paid for him and what they are asking now, which is nearly quadruple in price.

Wouldn’t it lower his price if he’s never stood at inspection? I’ve tried entering the number on his papers but nothing comes up.

Advice? He’s a lovely horse either way but I’d like to know how to proceed.

Thanks!

[pluvinel]

Vet the seller, not the horse. I had a Hanoverian with pink papers and am not familiar with Oldenburg papers, but if you know the sales history of this horse, ask around and be careful.

[lazaret]

Is the horse a gelding?

If so the papers are really proof of pedigree, more than anything else. I’ve never much cared about inspection scores on non-breeding stock.

If the horse has papers that certify pedigree and a ULEN number, I wouldn’t be that concerned, but that is me personally. Which organization issued the white papers and is the horse chipped (he should be if he is 3.5).

[Gr.Prix_Dreamer]

The seller is an upper level dressage trainer with an excellent reputation.

I ask the questions because I have a 23 year old, pink papered GOV and they are really strict and helpful. I have reached out to them with questions too.
Thanks for your reply!

[Gr.Prix_Dreamer]

He is a gelding and there is a number on the papers but I can’t tell from which organization they came from based only off of the picture. They are in German.
I haven’t asked if he’s chipped. I will do that! Thank you!

[Manni01]

My point of view… if he is a gelding who cares whether he is registered… maybe his sire didn’t do a sport test…
Not sure what you need his registration for? If you like you can pm me his papers, but if you like the horse and if he is healthy it wouldn’t be a dealbreaker for me…. You don’t ride his registration….

[Gr.Prix_Dreamer]

No, you don’t ride his registration but I’m guessing his price might reflect a difference of he isn’t registered?
I guess it’s a snobby question but for what I’m about to pay it would be nice to have all of the i’s dotted and the it’s crossed

[yaya]

If you want to go for any breed awards, they usually need to be registered.

[Gr.Prix_Dreamer]

Yes, they do! My current boy is GOV and when we used to compete, we held a membership at the Oldenburg Breeders Society. They were also very helpful in getting his papers transferred to my name as well as his microchip. I got a lovely magazine subscription and other perks.
It IS important to me that he’s registered.

[Cowgirl]

I have a registered oldenburg gelding (although he could also be registered hanoverian). I showed him in hand as a 3 year old gelding (as a sport horse prospect, which also pissed off breeders when he beat their stallion prospects) and, despite barely ever trotting (he walked and cantered), he was reserve champion GOV all breeds and placed in the top 6 (I can’t remember–maybe fourth) nationally. This allowed me to double his insured value with my carrier. So while others might not think there is much value to showing a gelding in hand, I have proof that there IS a value. You could use this as a bartering chip.

[Manni01]

Well it’s hard for me to say anything without seeing his papers. But nowadays in Germany a foal gets a passport for documentation of all his data as well as a certification of ownership. That certificate is white. And usually it doesn’t show a name because they do get the passport and the certificate after the foal registration and for that they don’t need a name.
If the horse has a chip, a passport and this white ownership certificate it should be registered.
Sales ads usually don’t show all little details. And for me not being registered could also mean that he is not registered as a brood mare…
But as I said hard to know if I never saw his papers…. If you don’t trust the sellers don’t buy the horse

[Manni01]

Did the papers look like this?

[Bluey]

As a horse gets older, if nothing else, certificates can become important as it insure the age horse is represented to be to be correct, if and when horse may be for sale again.

[trubandloki]

@Gr.Prix_Dreamer

I found his original ad, so I have an idea of what they have paid for him and what they are asking now, which is nearly quadruple in price.

Do you know that the horse was sold off that ad or maybe after more was done to it so it sold for more? Does that price comparison you are doing include all the training that this person has put into the horse? This person also took the risk of importing the horse.

I think the bottom line of pricing is, either the horse is worth that much to you or not. It does not matter what that person paid for it.

[DownYonder]

Are the white papers in German only? Or does it also include English and French? Is it the same as what Manni posted (a Certificate of Ownership)?

And does that paper reflect his UELN number (Lebensnummer)? For Oldenburg, it should be DE 433 followed by a nine-digit number starting with 33 - so DE 433 33xxxxxxx. The 33 indicates the Oldenburg Verband and the x’s will be numbers, with the last two digits corresponding to his year of birth. And IIRC the two digits previous to that should match the number beneath his brand (if he is branded).

If he has a Lebensnummer, he should also have a passport - he could not travel within the EU or be exported without it. Tell the seller you want to see his passport (pink papers). It should look similar to the image below. If they can’t show you a passport, then my guess is that a previous owner or the importer lost it or tossed it. If you have the Certificate of Ownership, you may be able to get the Oldenburg Verband to issue a duplicate passport, as long as there is a legal ownership trail. You may not need the passport though unless you want to sell him (buyer may want it), or unless you want to compete for breed awards through USEF (although they may accept just the Certificate of Ownership - don’t really know).

And the reason they issue both a passport and a Certificate of Ownership is that in Europe, the passport has to travel with the horse - always. So an owner that has a horse in training somewhere will keep the Ownership Certificate but send the passport to the training barn with the horse. They are supposed to record all vax, etc. in the passport but I know that isn’t always done.

[Edited the image to show where the Lebensnummer should be. I have blurred out the horse’s identity info (numbers and name).]

[pluvinel]

@Bluey

As a horse gets older, if nothing else, certificates can become important as it insure the age horse is represented to be to be correct, if and when horse may be for sale again.

This ^^^.

If the papers don’t go with the horse, or if the horse does not have papers certifying who he/she is, then the horse is just a “grade horse” and would be valued as such unless the animal has a stellar competition record, and then you are buying the competition record.

[Gr.Prix_Dreamer]

Thank you!

[Gr.Prix_Dreamer]

The papers look very similar to these.

[Warmblood1]

I would request a copy of his papers and verify registration with GOV. The seller should be able to provide you a copy very easily.

And yes, both inspection results and proof of registry affects a horse’s value, regardless if this is a gelding or not. Foals that are inspected and do well will see a higher price point.

The seller may not be trying to do anything nefarious, they may have some misinformation or a lack of information about the horse if they are acting as an agent to the owner, etc. I’ve seen some situations like this before. Best thing to do in those cases is verify the horse with the registry.

[DownYonder]

Ask the seller where the passport is. Again, in Europe it should have stayed with the horse through every change of owner or location but that does not happen in NA. Some importers, trainers, and owners lose them or toss them, thinking that once the horse is imported, the passport is of no value. That attitude is particularly rampant amongst NA-based trainers and owners, and esp. so for geldings, and even more so amongst the hunter crowd. It’s also a sad fact of life that shysters sometimes try to pass off a sale horse as something he is not by switching or “losing” the passport (although microchipping is thankfully making that practice more difficult). Hopefully the horse you are looking at is not being misrepresented.