Buying a young-ish jumper in Europe?

[Chestnut24]

I would say (generalizing) horses are ridden more actively with more contact than American hunter seat. Don’t forget, in Germany at least, dressage (with a big D) is the basis of riding. If you are at a German jumper barn and people are flatting, it is really dressage. I guess this is the same in Holland or Belgium.

American style (generalizing) is lighter, letting the horse find the contact, horse is not immediately ridden in a frame but worked into it, riders tend to not sit so deep in the saddle and give the horse more space.

Some horses seem to adjust easily to the difference, others not so.

[Harte]

I guess for me it’s not about “clout” but about value. I have a European husband (non-horsey) but when I travel to Europe with him I visit barns and see what’s available over there. I know enough about horses to see that the 5 y-o EE import warmblood that my friend paid 75k for stateside wouldn’t go for a cent over 15k in continental Europe. For me it’s about not squandering my budget on inflated US prices when I have no interest in the hunters anyway… I feel like just because I might have the budget to pick up a horse that might just have the ability to do what I want over the fences here, I could spend the same amount, maybe less, and get something that can jump the moon from Europe. And while there are real risks to an import, there are also plenty of shady horse deals that happen stateside as well in terms of lameness, behavioral issues, drugging, etc. I don’t feel like staying local would necessarily be guaranteeing me a perfect lesser quality horse. If something amazing came along stateside, I’d absolutely take it, but I’m pretty sure all those horses get scooped up for way more than my budget allows anyway. Anyway, this is my very long-winded way of saying I’d like to do my homework now and find some reliable European sellers. I know I have a long road, but this thread has already been so helpful in guiding me already

[IPEsq]

I imported a horse who loves American riding and is a very nice “ladies horse” type plus a bit of a push ride. I imported him as a late 7yo. He still took quite a bit of “Americanizing” despite being a natural for our style of riding.

He has a naturally super light mouth and is sensitive without being too quirky or too careful. Never bats an eyelash at the jumps. Can get distracted by stuff outside the ring like a lot of WBs.

He was ridden by a tall man exclusively until my friend snatched him up as a sales horse when the breeder needed to downsize. He was used to a LOT of leg, seat, and hand. Half of the gas pedal was in his mouth. Like if you told him to go and didn’t have a strong contact, he was just confused. Didn’t keep the strong contact and the driving aids? He’d break gait. Not that he was strong in the mouth at all. He was also used to waiting for the rider to tell him the distance over fences. While he’s pretty “Americanized” now, he still might listen to rider instructions to a fault (like you make a really dumb decision and he just goes, well ok!). I could tell he’d also been really driven the last few strides before the jump because he didn’t rush but it was easy to move up too much if you saw a little forward distance. He had a lot of correct flatwork “buttons” but he just expected much stronger aids.

He’s a very good boy personality, and the first time I just wanted to get in my 2 point and go for a little gallop, he literally cocked his head and rolled an eyeball back at me, lifted his neck, and started to slow down, like, hey lady? You ok up there? You about to fall off? Why don’t you sit down? Should I stop?

First time I did that 2 point canter (after teaching him it’s a thing lol) and I went to give him a little pat on the neck, he spooked.

He’d also been poled I think at some point (so schooling areas at shows went quite differently than I expected!) and needed to be desensitized a bit to the whip. He did not understand this whole back to back rounds thing we do in the hunter ring. So we tended to win the first class and then second class, after jumping the first jumps going away from the gate, some squealing and porpoising might happen . At least because he was a little older than most in my budget, he did have a better understanding of going forward and back and general steering and bending. A lot of the 4-5 year olds might jump a big fence (compared to what most would do here) but the steering can get questionable!

[Rel6]

@vxf111

They go from basically feral to being ridden strongly to medium sized jumps and being ready to go to shows. I’ve seen lovely horses imported that were being ridden over big tracks and didn’t have training level dressage skills.

This describes it so well. I watch the sale video from Europe of my current horse and its a very tall European man in spurs making him look so put together in the bridle and kicking him forward to 1.0m oxers. I tried him 3 months after import, and after he had been restarted by a pro who rides more similarly to me, and both the steering and brakes were still pretty iffy.

[tohorse]

Watch any of the warmup videos here on this youtube channel https://www.youtube.com/@Eden0147

Or I find the way Harrie Smolders rides his stallions really instructive about what you can expect from a Euro sourced horse in terms of flatwork and way of riding by age (obviously keeping in mind that this is one of the best riders in the world):
A 16 y.o. finished product (6min and onwards): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OX9vSLcMwA8
A 5 y.o. https://youtu.be/748KZz2ArjY?si=k15LqIz6hS06caZ4

[Amberley]

@Chestnut24

American style (generalizing) is lighter, letting the horse find the contact, horse is not immediately ridden in a frame but worked into it, riders tend to not sit so deep in the saddle and give the horse more space.

I think you are really talking about “hunt seat” and hunters here. Not everyone in the US rides this way for sure. Plenty of jumper riders won’t notice much difference.

Also people are again conflating their experience with one or two large commercial German/ Dutch/ Belgian outfits breeding for sales/ auctions with the entire continent of Europe. There are plenty of places in Europe you can’t sell a horse locally that does not hack out or isn’t very well behaved on the flat. A lot of people won’t start a larger horse till its 4 sure but that is a good thing, imho.

[IPEsq]

I think there are also some cultural differences in the idea of and tolerances for what is “well behaved” under saddle. No judgment on either side. Just my observation has been that it’s…different.

[poltroon]

@touchstone

I realize this is a tangent, but several posters have talked about “Americanizing” a European import. Can someone provide some clarity on what this involves? I have a fair amount of experience riding recently imported horses, and I don’t remember them having significantly different buttons than horses that have been stateside for a while, so I feel like I’m missing something.

On top of the very good replies already, I think we tend to underestimate how much any move for a horse can be really distressing for them and take some time to adapt and adjust and learn what is safe and trustworthy.

If a child is suddenly moved to a new home without their consent and active participation we get that this is wrenching. The horse loses all the people they know and all their buddies and the facilities are different and the routine is different and some horses are very chill about this and some horses kinda lose their minds. This happens with domestic sales too of course: the classic, “he was great when I tried him what have I done” 3-6 months new horse syndrome.

The horse doesn’t know what you paid and doesn’t really know that they are safe with you.

In a domestic sale the facilities and practices do tend to be more similar, especially if it’s a show barn to show barn transition.

[M1ssmouse]

In Ireland Americanizing a horse would be using much less leg than we would normally and less contact, get up out of saddle as well, training a horse to go down a distance without much interference. Not every horse here suits the USA market but when they do we can ask a good price and get it.

[M1ssmouse]

And from my experience lots of USA clients work through an agent and bring a trainer, both of whom will take commissions adding at least 20% to the price or creating the price themselves on top of what we’ve asked for the horse. Not all clients realise that their trainer is quietly putting themselves in the deal.

[Harte]

If I could find a trustworthy agent who could point me the right way I would happily budget in that percent!

[M1ssmouse]

lol now you’ve said it!

[greysfordays]

I worry you might be over-valuing scope over everything else. I sometimes wonder if the term no scope no hope has gotten a little out of hand. Scope just is not the panacea everyone thinks it is.

From your description, rideable is what’s really important. If a horse is scopey, that means it’s athletic. Super athletic horses don’t always make for great amateur mounts. If you have both and you want the horse sound that can get expensive fast.

I vetted a 7 year old mare in Europe last month who was scopey enough to do the 1.40s with a pro. I would say it was too soon to be sure she could do the 1.40s with an amateur. For sure, put her in a jump shoot, she’s going to fly over the standards, but I don’t think that’s a real test of this horse can get around a big course with someone newer to jumping this big. I hear you when you’ve said you’ve jumped big before, but from your description, it sounds like you’re not confirmed at that level? Maybe that’s unfair, but that’s my sense and I mean no disrespect at all. I run my mouth a lot for being queen of the 1.25m

Anywho, this mare was quite rideable and priced at 150k. The sellers know her rideability is what makes her valuable both in Europe and the states. The video of her visibly inexperienced mom riding around the 1m and not flicking an ear at mistakes maybe adds 25% to her value.

Despite all these good things, I was a bit relieved she didn’t pass the vet. I was nervous importing after having been burned so many times buying for potential rather than practiced. And this wouldn’t be my only horse, so a dud wouldn’t have killed me. The trip over is also much more taxing than people realize, particularly for a mare.

I just worry that all the things you’re worried about with American sellers is doubly true in Europe. There is some value to buying a horse from a trainer who has to see you at all the same shows. You can absolutely still get screwed, but you’re much more out of sight out of mind buying from a European seller. I absolutely agree you can find absolute bargains in Europe. But it’s not a given.

One thing you could consider since you are pretty set on importing is working with a really established dealer like Neil Jones, who if the horse isn’t what you thought, will often work out a trade. Now that insurance does not come cheap, but he does know what an amateur horse is, and he is very well connected in Europe. I’m sure there are others people can recommend.

I still think your money is better spent locally given your parameters. But as someone who works in investing, people think they know how they feel about accepting risk until they lose a bunch of money. And by then it’s too late.

[Tha_Ridge]

@tohorse

He said the best value for money right now if you’re just looking for a horse to cruise around the 120-130 are the horses that are 10-12 tapped out at 130-140, with less than perfect x-rays and maybe a bit of a quirky ride.

I haven’t read through this whole thread (even though I have lots of thoughts having done this more than a few times), but I bought this exact horse several years ago and he changed my life. The 11-year-old+ market is exactly where every ammy shopping in Europe on a “budget” should be looking.

[BITSA]

@Tha_Ridge

The 11-year-old+ market is exactly where every ammy shopping in Europe on a “budget” should be looking.

This.

[M1ssmouse]

All dealers are required to offer a solution if a horse doesn’t work out (with more money on top is the norm). Lots of scope in my experience is no use for an amateur rider as a horse that lands out well after a fence will leave that rider behind. Something clever, almost slightly rude that looks after itself is a better option.

[blondewithchrome]

@M1ssmouse

Something clever, almost slightly rude that looks after itself is a better option

This is SUCH a good way to describe this horse hah! My trainer calls it “self preservation instinct” - which, I agree with in the scope vs. safety question. Not that horses with mega scope aren’t safe, per se, but so often those horses are catty, hot, and down right hard to ride for even a very good riding amateur for the 1.20/25. My perspective is the best horse for that ride is something that did a level above and maybe had rails or was not quite up to snuff, so if amateur makes mistake the horse HAS some scope to cover, but won’t do anything dangerous.

This is my ideal situation for my next 1m horse. Give me the 1.10/1.15 horse who is a bit blasè about the 1.15 so he can help me out over the meter with an eye roll.

[M1ssmouse]

Yes they need to take care of themselves sometimes lol

[Peggy]

You don’t want one that will take you to stupid.