Buying a young-ish jumper in Europe?

[Harte]

Hello! I know there are some great local options and major risks to shopping in continental Europe, but I just can’t get past what happens to the price tag after a horse lands on this side of the ocean and does a few shows with a big-name trainer. So, when the time is right (and I feel more confident in what I’m doing here) my plan remains to roll the dice, proceed with tons of caution, and import.

I have two requests if anyone would be so kind:

1. did anyone out there already do their homework on this and know of places, people, agents to trust/avoid? If so, would you please be willing to share your list with me? (I’ve seen some of the previous posts but I’m curious about any recent/additional feedback)
2. my goal is to buy something roughly 5-7 with a great attitude, tons of scope, quality bloodlines, and no soundness issues. What would a reasonable budget for such a creature be? I don’t care about their hunter-y characteristics or having the fastest, most careful jumper. Just a brave soul who won’t let me down in a more jumper-centric role.
   Thank you for any insights!

[faultfree]

@Harte

my goal is to buy something roughly 5-7 with a great attitude, tons of scope, quality bloodlines, and no soundness issues. What would a reasonable budget for such a creature be? I don’t care about their hunter-y characteristics or having the fastest, most careful jumper. Just a brave soul who won’t let me down in a more jumper-centric role.
Thank you for any insights!

I think even in Europe this is going to be six figures, though I guess it depends on what exactly you define as “tons of scope”— if we’re talking 1.20/1.30m miles, that might be found for high 5 figures. But you mean 1.40/1.50m horse, don’t think you’ll find that for less than 6 figures, if it also has great bloodlines, attitude, and no vetting issues.

[Rel6]

I’ll let someone else who has more knowledge speak on specifics for pricing, but it absolutely will not be six figures. They’re looking for something young, with scope for the future, and not necessarily the winner (doesn’t have to be the fastest or most careful).

You could find that in the US for under 6 figures, and definitely a heck of a lot less overseas.

I agree OP will get more accurate price ranges with a narrowed range of what they want to do - lots of scope could mean 1.2m with scope to spare to bail out a rider error or they could be looking for a future GP horse. And how green are you willing to import? Never shown? Never jumped?

[Words_of_Wisdom]

I would not get hung up on bloodlines, particularly if you are buying a gelding. Can’t ride a piece of paper.
Price range is going to vary a lot, as noted by others, based on age and just how much ability you are looking for. At 7 you have a better idea of what they might finish as, but nothing is a guarantee.

[FieldMack]

I’m not sharing my contacts and I doubt most people in a forum will.

Don’t buy from eastern Europe.

Winning 1.30M 10 y/o $30K plus import costs.
Under saddle, unshown but jumping 4 y/o $20K plus import.

I know people who bought young jumpers for $15k and they showed 1.30-1.40 with them.

Small agents and breeders have all the same lines and quality, you just have to find them. The big name European sales barns buy from these small breeders too, put in 90 days, do slick marketing and triple the cost for the US market.

[tohorse]

It really depends. I just spoke about this matter with a friend who trades horses in Belgium, mostly retraining the ones with behavioural problems but lots of scope and great papers (GP prospects). He buys them for lowish 5 figs with hope they have the scope to make it all the way to GP then sells them at 130-150 level while they are still on the move up for low 6 figs typically a year or two later after issues are resolved. If he’s lucky and the horse really comes around it’s only a few months of work.

He saw one of mine that I got here for mid 4 figs here, a small but pretty cribber, half warmblood (good lines) with an OK jump and good attitude, he said never in a million years I could get anything like that even unbacked in Belgium for that kind of money.

He said an American kind of ride is expensive even if the horse is not very scopey. A good winning 110-120 jumper can easily go for mid-high 5 figs euros. Also worth noting that what’s a winning horse in US won’t be a winning horse in Europe where you have 200+ entries for a 120 course. If you just want something straightforward that can jump clear that’s not gonna be so expensive. But if you want the creme de la creme… pay up. The art is knowing where the cutoff is for your local market and own needs.

And really nice youngsters with scope seemingly to go all the way to the top and who are not in any way challenging (clean vet bill) and easy to handle can also creep up to high 5s, low sixes.

The price gets knocked down with blemishes on x-rays, worse rideability and limitations in scope/technique. But if the brain is the there and the scope is still a solid 130-140 horse it’s gonna be expensive.

He said the best value for money right now if you’re just looking for a horse to cruise around the 120-130 are the horses that are 10-12 tapped out at 130-140, with less than perfect x-rays and maybe a bit of a quirky ride. Those don’t move nearly as fast as they would’ve when they were 6 and “with potential” and that’s reflected in pricing.

He also said for the American buyer going to EE might be a good idea because while you wouldn’t want to trust the x-rays most of the exported horses never make it really past 1.10 anyways so you get a pretty horse for a bit of a discount. But he’d never buy a non Zangersheide or BWP or one of the German studbooks horses for resale as the local market in Belgium would be highly suspicious and that would again warrant a discount.

[Bristol_Bay]

The typical horse buying experience here in SoCal is that there is a trust network of trainers that means sale horses can go on trial. You have a week or so to vet the horse and buy it or pass.

Buying from Europe changes the whole dynamic. No one wants to fly over there and not buy a horse, so I think that influences buyers to ignore their instincts. You don’t have possession of the horse to get a fuller picture of their talents or quirks and may be disappointed. There’s pressure to buy built in to the process.

I think that totally justifies the markup on an imported horse.

[BellaFortuna]

Why do you recommend avoiding Eastern European horses? I am not familiar with the market and genuinely curious.

[Nikki]

Upcoming auctions 2024 | World of Showjumping

Look at this one. SLF Horse Auctions July 2024 | Online auction

Look at auctions. Tons of them over in Europe. Beautiful bloodlines too. I watch them all the time and get a feel what the breeders are making. Lots of Chacco Blues in the mix.

[IPEsq]

In the 5-7 range with show record and no blemishes, quirks, or rideability problems, these days you are looking at at least mid-5 figures. Depending on how much scope is your “tons of scope”, could be 6 figures. Sure, hunter potential may come with a premium including for the 4-5 year old prospects, but “great attitude, tons of scope, quality bloodlines, and no soundness issues” is expensive even without hunter looks/quietness. Maybe you could get a 5 year old that’s been started slower without much showing direct from a breeder if you network right for closer to mid-5s, but sometimes they want to keep those ones a little bit longer…

Slightly older and not going to get past 1.35m, and maybe you get into more deal making territory.

[findeight]

@Harte

what happens to the price tag after a horse lands on this side of the ocean and does a few shows with a big-name trainer.

Ummm….that happens with a horse from over here too. Just sayin…a few shows with a BNT can add quite a bit.

[Peggy]

How you proceed definitely depends on your tolerance for risk.

When I bought what I figured might be my last horse I wanted something Americanized, something I could maybe try more than once, have my vet do the PPE, and ideally be able to do a trial at my barn. So I probably paid a premium for that. But my risk tolerance wasn’t great. It also turned out that the horse came with his own support system that was extraordinarily helpful when I needed to lay him up.

I know people who have done great with horses from Europe, and not so great. I know of amateurs without a ton of knowledge that have done amazingly well buying youngish horses from auctions and pros that have not.

As far as price, it depends on what “a ton of scope” translates to. Something that can jump 1.3+m and bail out a kid or an amateur at 1.2m. Or 1.6-m potential that will carry a kid or amateur around their first GP. And potential can be pricey.

[Harte]

Thank you all for your helpful responses! I think I’m looking in the 50-100 range (but I have to consider all the extra fees: shipping, vets, trainer, etc). As far as risk is concerned, I’d like to minimize as much as possible by finding the right people to work with in the first place (I’m curious why sharing names of trusted sources for agents, sellers, etc. would be inadvisable - what am I missing?) so I will definitely be paying a premium for this.
My deal is that I used to do some bigger fences: I’ve jumped around 1.40+ courses at home before, competed more at the 1.15-level. I had a horse that was a dirty stopper (turned out he had a catastrophic medical issue brewing), and he traumatized me pretty badly (hence wanting to find a really brave, kind type of young horse). I don’t have a desire to compete that much: if I’m being honest, I’m not really impressed with the overall “personality” of the top levels of the US show circuit. It’s just not my cup of tea. That said, and as crazy as it sounds, I’d like a horse that I can train with as though I were working towards a high adult track and enjoy watching a green horse grow into something bigger and better, with a bit of local showing along the way. I want a horse that I could possibly jump around a 5’ course at home at some point in their career, and he could safely get me around so long as I do an adequate job, and a horse I can grow old with then retire. Not exactly a traditional path, I know, but it’s just where I’d like to be, if I’m being honest with myself.
Anyway, thank you! And additional input is much appreciated!

[Harte]

Thank you Do you mind explaining why sharing this info on reliable agents, sellers, etc is inadvisable, and how I might go about finding answers? Thanks again for your response!

[Harte]

Thank you!

[Harte]

This is fantastic info. Thank you so much!

[vxf111]

People with good contacts want to keep them for themselves.

[beowulf]

You don’t get commission if you give your contacts away.

[tohorse]

So this is a much better description of what you are looking for.

I think you are trying to solve for two different types of horses. One is a sound schoolmaster that is fun to ride and can jump the local bigger tracks to rebuilt your confidence and the other is a young horse you can bring up the levels and get to become the first type. So you are trying to compromise by picking a 5-7 year old that has some show miles. Fair enough. But I think you’ll find that the 5-7 yo in Europe can still be pretty green relative to how they look on videos and not yet super brave and you risk overpaying for potential.

They will often have better flatwork but will also be used to more hand holding over fences (cue could mean less forgiving). Some of the better dealers that are used to that type of client know that they need to prepare the horses for all kinds of riders but this is not universal and many of the younger horses are used to a very different, more micromanaged riding style compared to the average North American H/J rider.

You probably have already considered this, but if you’re gonna buy a green horse why not buy it here? When it comes to 3-4 yo that are lightly backed you can buy OK-ay to really nice quality for quite comparable prices in North America. You might have less choice but Alberta has some great young horse breeders (plus the exchange rate!), there are some in VA, GA and so on. Your budget should be more than sufficient and you could get a very nice horse you can bring up the levels yourself.

Now if you don’t want to do all the work or spend some time searching, it really makes a lot of sense to go to Europe for horses with miles because it’s so much cheaper to train and show them there. For example, 2 years ago I was looking for a husband horse and tried a tank of a 10 yo gelding that was being jumped 1.25 by an ammy and had tapped out at 1.45 with a pro as an 8 yo and he was going for 30k EUR firm. You could buy a 5 y.o. with far less miles but potential from same breeder/owner for 20-25k EUR because “potential”. Small disclaimer here is that this was a rider with close common friends in EE so I was maybe given less padded pricing.

Finally, for what you are looking which sounds more of a horse that can jump but does not need to be a prospect for even the local 150 courses, let alone 5* FEI (“unlimited scope”) you should easily fit into your budget and those types of horses are not that rare. The kind of horse could go for 20-80k depending on the horse itself, how much potential the owner believes it has, where the horse is, commissions and how they size you up.

[Amberley]

I am from Europe, I could buy a young going 1.3m horse for less than $30k tomorrow. I see them advertised regularly with a verifiable record. The prices quoted here are mind boggling unless you are looking for a world cup prospect or something.

My advice, other than not being American maybe, is to only buy where you clearly understand the process and can communicate directly or through a very trusted agent. Consider buying from the UK or Ireland where the horses are started much differently and are expected to be good to hack out, handle on the ground and are used to turnout etc. Buy direct if possible. You can absolutely get a nice calm gelding in the UK or Ireland who has a 1.2m/ 1,3m record with a good temperament and who hacks out well, has life experience and is easy to live with for under your budget.
Consider going to the Sunshine Circuit in Spain where you can see 600+ young jumpers in one place.

For browsing pricing and to see what is desirable breeding to people like you join some local Facebook or whatsapp groups and see what is being offered for sale and the local price.

You got good advice here about not needing the winner in Europe to do well here. Maybe it won’t win in a big open class there with but can win a lot in the US where there are small classes and many amateur divisions.

eta: https://www.monartsale.auction/collection/11 check the current and past sale prices.