The Byerley Turk line is now really dying out it seems.
http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/byerley-turk-reaching-the-end-of-the-line/
I love how Chris McGrath writes.
That asideā¦ it really would be a shame to see it eradicated, it has produced so many wonderful horses for event sport ā¦ but eventers are not racers, and he is right - even through Herod, Byerly Turk does not hold much claim here through his male descendants ā¦ through his female descendants is a different story.
Althoughā¦ there was quite a stir years and years ago about worrying that the Goldophin Arabian line was dying, and then we got Relaunch and Tiznowā¦
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He was born around 1680 and therefore his sireline is the oldest.
Ugh, every time I read another Byerley article about the sire line dying, I get a bit sad. Legal Jousting is really starting to show his age, and Iām afraid that Iāve never had someone bring a mare with a family worthy enough of staying intact (nor have I enough of a bankroll to fund such a project). Hopefully it wonāt completely die out.
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Doesnāt sound to me so much that itās dying out as that itās being killed off.
Either way, sad.
And who is rewriting his story to say he was born in England and not captured by Captain Byerley? But then his name has become spelled differently over the years, so who knows?
When you say sire line, that is strictly speaking of stallions who trace back through the top of the pedigree correct? Sorry if this is a dumb question.
Yes, the top of the pedigree.
So threads like these cause me to use my horses pedigree as a learning tool. I know Sadlers Wells is a solid steeplechase sire, what makes Perfect Soul undesirable? Or is he like his sire? I ask because, both top and bottom of my mare link back to the Byerley Turk line.
Is that line better for steeplechasing than flat racing? Going back far enough I found The Flying Dutchman.
Well during very recent Royal Ascot there were a number of very nice flat racing horses with Ahonoora in their pedigree, however not in the sireline.
I find it amazing that most people still refer to the āthreeā founding sires of the Thoroughbred breed. That is inaccurate. Yes, we have the Byerly Turk, the Darley Arabian, and the Goldolphin Arabian, but there is a fourth founding member of the breed: the Curwen Bay Barb. Dr. Patrick Cunningham, at the University of Dublin, many years back did genetic studies on the TB breed. Interestingly enough, he discovered that the Curwen Bay Barb had more influence on the breed than the Goldolphin Arabian. Alas, more than 20 years later, you can still buy the TB genetic ācircleā that does not even mention the Curwen Bay Barb (at such places as Kentucky Horse Park).
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It is not inaccurate. When people say āthree founding siresā, they are referring to the three intact sire lines still left.
There were numerous other āBarb/Arab/Turkā contributors to the foundation of the TB, of which Curwen Bay Barb was just one, though Curwen BB did probably leave more of an impact that some of the others. All those sire lines are extinct now though.
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I agree that itās not inaccurate. There were dozens of sires that appear in the oldest pedigrees, both here and in the UK, but by the time Weatherby put together the GSB in 1791 or so, Eclipse, Matchem, and Herod from the mid 1700s had come to so dominate breeding that very few living horses not from those sire lines made it into his book. Since each of those represented one of the Darley Arabian, the Godolphin Arabian (who was more likely a Bard), and the Byerly Turk, they were the foundation sirelines of the breed at the time it became a breed.
In fact, one might say that it became essential to inclusion in the GSB to derive from one of those sire lines.
Just out of sheer curiosity I traced all 3 of my horses back through their sire lines. One is a TB that was injured and retired before he even raced and the other 2 are imported Selle Francais. All 3 trace back to the Darley Arabian through Eclipse (via my favorite named Pot8os) on their direct sireline. All 3 also contain the Godolphin Arabian and the Byerley Turk on their sireline as well
The precarious state of Matchem and Herod is not new. By the beginning of the 20th century, Matchem was down to Melbourneās son, West Australian; Herod was down to Dollar and Thormanby (if Thormanby was by Windhound and not Melbourne.) I have a theory that jumping ability in the TB did not come from the Darley Arabian who was the only true Arabian among the three founding sires; I think that it has to have come from Matchem and Herod or from the myriad mares that founded the breed. I also think that there must have been something very beneficial in the Y mutation that is not in Eclipse but comes through one of his sons or grandsons to make the Waxy/Whalebone branch of his sire line so selected for over the years that it is so very, very dominant.
Off topic but Iām curious K~2 what you would consider a family worthy of staying intact? Regardless of the answer though I do hope you find one before you retire him.
I guess what everybody looks for - blacktype, blacktype producer, having a family that has produced stallions in the dam line, etc. Generally unaffordable! :lol:
The mares Iāve had are workman-type, some family that can run, but lacking a stallion-making family.
Sadly, it has.
Well, I was nearly crucified by mentioning my ātheoreticalā conversation with my very knowable farrier, who suggested to āstrengthenā the Thoroughbred breed for the future, was to re-introduce the Turkish horses.
No it would NOT promote speed.
But it WOULD promote endurance, durability, soundness; strength of hooves, bone & tendons.
That the whole point of it all: Our of our 'theoretical discussion. Consider: Colts whoāve shown speed, breaking down or not; ~ 3 - 5 races, off to the breeding shed. Not very good for the future of TBs now is it? Speed rules.
Itās no longer a sport - itās business.
(Sorry for my negativity; last night I wrote eulogy for a friend I didnāt even know was sick. Stomach cancer SUCKS!)
Iām sorry about the loss of your friend. This has to be a difficult time.
But weāve been over this before about the flaws in the farrierās argument.
Specifically: the colts whoāve shown speed but ābreak downā after 3-5 races. This is true for someone like, say, Malibu Moon-- yes, he did endure a career-ending injury early on that prevented him from ever racing again. Malibu Moon also defied the odds by proving himself as a sire despite no significant racing performance. His situation does not apply to the VAST majority of these colts. Most of these colts sustain minor injuries or illness that could be rehabbed if given sufficient time, but because of pedigree + the brilliance shown on the track in their short careers, it makes more sense to retire them to the shed while breeders remember their brilliance. The alternative is to walk away from the money offered and risk the expense of bringing those colts back when there is no guarantee that they will race at the same level, potentially losing the opportunity to ever enter the breeding shed.
Another flaw is the assumption that injuries all have a genetic component. From my own observations, I couldnāt disagree more. Injuries in racehorses are complex, influenced by more variables than we can quantify. Believe me, if there was ONE thing we could point to and prevent injuries, we would be doing it. When there is an obvious, consistently demonstrated risk, it DOES get addressed. For example, steroids or excessively large turn-downsā¦
You knock racing for being a business, but do you have any idea how much money it takes to be involved in racing? Itās not called the āsport of kingsā without reason. Even at the lowest levels of the sport, it costs more than my salary as an advance-degreed teacher to keep a horse in race training; how do you propose we fund it if people canāt potentially earn money?
I would wholeheartedly suggest to your farrier that if he truly feels strongly about his idea, he should begin breeding these crosses himself. If he is correct in his ideas that you could improve racing with the infusion of Turkish blood, the horses will do the talking and the market will follow. 
But usually, thereās a good reason why the wheel hasnāt been reinventedā¦
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