[QUOTE=2tempe;7585023]
OandO - you say he will have to face the “real distance horses”. I honestly don’t know how anyone can know less than 1/2 way thru a 3 yr old year, whether a horse is a real distance horse or not. And generally we don’t seem to breed this type anymore…[/QUOTE]
Kind of what I was thinking - I don’t see how any of the other horses running are any more “distance horses” than he is, really.
I have to wonder if today’s “distance horses” will be made by training rather than pedigree.
When it comes down to it, most modern horses have a mix of speed and stamina in their pedigrees. You can point here and say “sprinter,” you can point there and say “mile and a half.” It’s everywhere. The individual’s phenotype (heavy sprinter body vs lanky “scopey” type) may play a role, but so too the conditioning. Trainers just don’t really prep horses for a mile and a half regularly anymore.
The most fit horse-- the one who can carry his speed the farthest-- will likely win. I have to like CC’s chances here, he seems to be one of the best conditioned spring 3-year-olds I’ve seen.
In eventing, 30%-blood WBs are made fit enough to gallop around four-stars. Riders have figured out how to condition a non-TB for a long distance gallop. Is it not possible then to take a “sprinter/miler” pedigree horse and get him fit enough to compete with a distance-pedigreed horse who may lack bottom?
I have to wonder if today’s “distance horses” will be made by training rather than pedigree.
When it comes down to it, most modern horses have a mix of speed and stamina in their pedigrees. You can point here and say “sprinter,” you can point there and say “mile and a half.” It’s everywhere. The individual’s phenotype (heavy sprinter body vs lanky “scopey” type) may play a role, but so too the conditioning. Trainers just don’t really prep horses for a mile and a half regularly anymore.
The most fit horse-- the one who can carry his speed the farthest-- will likely win. I have to like CC’s chances here, he seems to be one of the best conditioned spring 3-year-olds I’ve seen.
In eventing, 30%-blood WBs are made fit enough to gallop around four-stars. Riders have figured out how to condition a non-TB for a long distance gallop. Is it not possible then to take a “sprinter/miler” pedigree horse and get him fit enough to compete with a distance-pedigreed horse who may lack bottom?
As an interested fan (but with no direct involvement in racing) I’ve noticed most horses are trained with half-mile breezes about every week. Occasionally a five-eighths work is thrown in for good measure. 90% of the horses I follow are trained this way; it seems like trainers are relying on pedigree/talent and one race a month to let the horse run his distance.
I’ve always wondered, why is a 6-7f horse trained the same way as a horse running a mile and a quarter? Are the regular (untimed) daily gallops longer or stronger? I know some horses work pretty hard in their gallops and stay fit; but why aren’t there more works at 7-8f for Derby hopefuls?
There have been studies that show that a TB who is only trained for distance will lose its speed, even if the speed is in the pedigree. I can’t remember where I read about them, but I believe they were sponsored by the JC/Grayson research arm. This is possibly because the TB has the easily convertible muscle fibers that respond to training.
When he is a piece of junk and a failure because he fails to win the Crown, can I buy him cheap for a showhorse? Naah, I want him to win it. We all love champions and folklore.
P.S. I went to the Derby in 2010 and saw SuperSaver win - but nothing after that - anybody know what he is doing. It was filthy weather and your horse had to be a mudder to win.
[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;7587172]
P.S. I went to the Derby in 2010 and saw SuperSaver win - but nothing after that - anybody know what he is doing.[/QUOTE]
He’s retired to stud and making babies:
http://www.winstarfarm.com/horses/super-saver-2020.html
[QUOTE=EventerAJ;7587091]
I have to wonder if today’s “distance horses” will be made by training rather than pedigree.
When it comes down to it, most modern horses have a mix of speed and stamina in their pedigrees. You can point here and say “sprinter,” you can point there and say “mile and a half.” It’s everywhere. The individual’s phenotype (heavy sprinter body vs lanky “scopey” type) may play a role, but so too the conditioning. Trainers just don’t really prep horses for a mile and a half regularly anymore.
The most fit horse-- the one who can carry his speed the farthest-- will likely win. I have to like CC’s chances here, he seems to be one of the best conditioned spring 3-year-olds I’ve seen.
In eventing, 30%-blood WBs are made fit enough to gallop around four-stars. Riders have figured out how to condition a non-TB for a long distance gallop. Is it not possible then to take a “sprinter/miler” pedigree horse and get him fit enough to compete with a distance-pedigreed horse who may lack bottom?
As an interested fan (but with no direct involvement in racing) I’ve noticed most horses are trained with half-mile breezes about every week. Occasionally a five-eighths work is thrown in for good measure. 90% of the horses I follow are trained this way; it seems like trainers are relying on pedigree/talent and one race a month to let the horse run his distance.
I’ve always wondered, why is a 6-7f horse trained the same way as a horse running a mile and a quarter? Are the regular (untimed) daily gallops longer or stronger? I know some horses work pretty hard in their gallops and stay fit; but why aren’t there more works at 7-8f for Derby hopefuls?[/QUOTE]
Interestingly, when we interviewed Patrice Wolfson for our book, she said that if Affirmed had been in anyone’s hands but Laz Barrera’s, he most likely would have been a sprinter.
Similarly, John Veitch said that Alydar would have made a top notch sprinter, but the Markeys wanted a Derby horse and so he trained Alydar to get the distance.
They don’t write races for a mile and a half but once every race meet (if that). There is no point in wasting the time. Contrary to everyone’s screaming about how all modern trainers are bad, we are really just slaves to the condition book. We can only run in what is available. By the time they write a distance race, everyone has given up or missed the chance to enter and the race won’t fill.
It isn’t because we wouldn’t prefer to run more route races, trust me. Honestly I think training for a route is much better for them soundness wise. It takes longer and a more time to build them up. That brings up another issue though, too many owners get antsy and don’t like that it takes that long.
Not many people want to work a horse 6+ furlongs regularly. I don’t. Works in general aren’t nearly as crucial as the TV handicapper crowd would like to think. Most trainers can accomplish what they need with gallops, a work is more of a maintenance thing. You usually see what you need to with a 3/8 or 1/2 mile work. Personally I’ll use a 5/8 as the second to last work before a horse’s first race (first ever or first off a layoff) and then we’ll be set. I’ll use a 3/4 (6 furlong) before a race at or over a mile.
I don’t believe in working and racing a horse into fitness. I believe in not working or racing them until they are fit, and luckily I have awesome owners. To each his own on that matter though.
No amount of “training” is going to make a horse do something he doesn’t want to do though. All we can do is give them the chance to succeed, the rest is up to them. It won’t matter how fit they are, or who is training.
[QUOTE=Angelico;7587312]
They don’t write races for a mile and a half but once every race meet (if that). There is no point in wasting the time. Contrary to everyone’s screaming about how all modern trainers are bad, we are really just slaves to the condition book. We can only run in what is available. By the time they write a distance race, everyone has given up or missed the chance to enter and the race won’t fill.
It isn’t because we wouldn’t prefer to run more route races, trust me. Honestly I think training for a route is much better for them soundness wise. It takes longer and a more time to build them up. That brings up another issue though, too many owners get antsy and don’t like that it takes that long.
Not many people want to work a horse 6+ furlongs regularly. I don’t. Works in general aren’t nearly as crucial as the TV handicapper crowd would like to think. Most trainers can accomplish what they need with gallops, a work is more of a maintenance thing. You usually see what you need to with a 3/8 or 1/2 mile work. Personally I’ll use a 5/8 as the second to last work before a horse’s first race (first ever or first off a layoff) and then we’ll be set. I’ll use a 3/4 (6 furlong) before a race at or over a mile.
I don’t believe in working and racing a horse into fitness. I believe in not working or racing them until they are fit, and luckily I have awesome owners. To each his own on that matter though.
No amount of “training” is going to make a horse do something he doesn’t want to do though. All we can do is give them the chance to succeed, the rest is up to them. It won’t matter how fit they are, or who is training.[/QUOTE]
The condition book reflects what trainers want. If racing secretaries thought 12f races would flll, then they would write a bunch of 12f races. They don’t because they don’t fill. They don’t fill because trainers don’t enter horses in them.
Trainers don’t enter horses in them because training for stamina races is time consuming and labor intensive (lots of slow gallops, miles and miles, more time for exercise riders in the saddle), and it also takes more out of a horse so you can’t run back as often.
[QUOTE=Drvmb1ggl3;7587368]
The condition book reflects what trainers want. If racing secretaries thought 12f races would flll, then they would write a bunch of 12f races. They don’t because they don’t fill. They don’t fill because trainers don’t enter horses in them.
Trainers don’t enter horses in them because training for stamina races is time consuming and labor intensive (lots of slow gallops, miles and miles, more time for exercise riders in the saddle), and it also takes more out of a horse so you can’t run back as often.[/QUOTE]
Did you not read what I said? They write them so scarcely, when they DO write them, everyone is already committed to something else. We don’t expect them to write any, so we don’t train for them. When they do write them, we can’t change our game plan by then. If we knew they’d be available then you would be surprised, but at this time we can’t forsake other races for a maybe.
Most trainers would prefer to have the same horses running once a month or so vs. having an ever changing group running every 2-3 weeks.
Chrome’s morning jog at Belmont… yes he can get worked up & sweaty, lol
His rider said he was quite full of himself & on the muscle through the whole jog
http://youtu.be/eyznTGsqmt8
What about horses like Charismatic? They wanted to get rid of him and look what he did. Personally, I like older horses racing. My favorite being Forego. He was not ready to be in the derby so he did not finish well but as he got older he was a great handicap horse.
CC connections bred the horse and now race the horse, he was not a yearling purchase. I wonder in history if more champions were purchases or bred and raced by the original stables like Calumet and Claiborne…?
[QUOTE=ivy62;7588666]
What about horses like Charismatic? They wanted to get rid of him and look what he did. Personally, I like older horses racing. My favorite being Forego. He was not ready to be in the derby so he did not finish well but as he got older he was a great handicap horse.
CC connections bred the horse and now race the horse, he was not a yearling purchase. I wonder in history if more champions were purchases or bred and raced by the original stables like Calumet and Claiborne…?[/QUOTE]
Yes, I think so. To my historically devoid knowledge, Seattle Slew was the only TC winner bought at auction.
[QUOTE=Angelico;7588673]
Yes, I think so. To my historically devoid knowledge, Seattle Slew was the only TC winner bought at auction.[/QUOTE]
You might be right. So maybe that’s another omen in CC’s favor.
Speaking of Forego, didn’t he run in the 73 Derby against Secretariat?
I have begun to lose a little of my love for racing that I have had since at least '65, but CC is invigorating to watch. I am in the camp with the OP though. I fear my heart will be broken, but hope springs eternal. And even though I live in a state where online gambling is verboten, I will be cheering just as hard as anyone, frightening my dogs.
Forego did run in the derby but did not finish well. He was a big horse that needed to mature. Not sure if the gelding actually helped him in anyway other then keeping him on the track.
He finished fourth, if I remember correctly.
I think there are so many of us that would love to see it happen, since it’s been so long and there’s a pretty nice story behind him. Even if I were the owner/jockey/trainer/whatever of another entry, I think a tiny part of me would be rooting for him (and of course a large part of me would be hoping to be someone associated with the horse that upset California Chrome, with all the publicity that would bring). For the record I would love to see him win.
[QUOTE=ivy62;7588873]
Forego did run in the derby but did not finish well. He was a big horse that needed to mature. Not sure if the gelding actually helped him in anyway other then keeping him on the track.[/QUOTE]
My recollection is that they gelded him because he was just so very rank as a stallion as to be difficult to train/unfocused in a race/pain in the butt.
NO!!!
Don’t jinx him.
I don’t want to sing Two out of three ain’t bad for California Chrome like I have for…
Spectacular Bid, Smarty Jones, Alysheba, Real Quiet, Funny Cide, I’ll Have Another, Big Brown, Real Quiet, Charismatic, War Emblem, Sunday Silence,Pleasant Colony, Silver Charm
I wonder if Meatloaf would give his okay to play it over the loudspeakers at the end of the Belmont if a horse finishes two legs of the crown.
It is still an achievement.
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