Have you ever watched any of Jane Savoie’s videos on getting your horse in front of the leg?
[QUOTE=luvmydutch;8868426]
Have you ever watched any of Jane Savoie’s videos on getting your horse in front of the leg?[/QUOTE]
Yes, I am a big Jane fan!
A few thoughts in addition to all of the excellent replies:
You have “Old Married Couple” syndrome. You need to separate for a little while. Get yourself some lessons on true schoolmasters. Not just a few. A PROGRAM. Many lessons per week on horses trained above second level. You need to be very clear about the balance and connection that you desire to create. It needs to be in your bones.
In the meantime, send the horse to a very good trainer. Hopefully the same one you are doing the riding lessons with. Either the one you are using now or a different one. Be brutally honest with yourself in choosing the best persons for the job you need done.
Leave her there a few months with frequent visitations. Some one who doesn’t have the emotional stuff in the way can clearly and correctly guide the horse over the second level hump.
THEN, spent a month getting back together. You come with a new seat and firmer standards. She comes with a new concept of connection and uphill balance that will allow more forward. Lots of lessons with her being warmed up first by trainer. Keep riding the schoolmaster so you don’t loose track of the feel you want.
Three months is not very long in the sceme of things, and I suggest this before you toss in the towel and decide she’s just a lower level star.
Right there with you. The details are different - my guy was not actually super easy as a young horse. But we cruised right on up to second level and hit a big fat wall.
He will go nicely forward in a long flat frame. Ask for a bit of collection and there is no forward.
I can solve it but it isn’t fun for either of us.
Current approach is two fold: trainer warms him up for me so he’s forward when I get on, then I can get the package put together a bit more; and we’re jumping him.
When I say “we” I mean the trainer because I no longer jump. At all.
I think he’ll end up being a 3day horse. He loves, loves, loves to jump.
I’m in the same quandary because I adore him. But he is just really struggling with the second level work, so I just don’t think I should keep frustrating us both.
I wouldn’t say mine is lazy, he’s actually quite hot… But his go to evasion is to get behind my leg. When he’s in front of my leg he’s fantastic, forward, and sensitive. But if you don’t keep him accountable he will slowly sneak behind and get stuck. As we’ve started doing some more collected work it has come back up.
During every single moment of every ride you need to keep them accountable. For horses like this you must insist that they react IMMEDIATELY to your aids. So for example, I will ask for more energy by adding a touch of leg. If I don’t get a reaction he gets some good pony club kicks with the leg until he goes FORWARD. Then go back to a quiet leg with little to no contact. Every time he tries to lose tempo without my asking he gets a single big kick to send him back forward, then super quiet leg. As Charlotte relayed at the clinic I attended - lazy horses should be ridden with the leg off, hot horses with the leg always on. I’m finding it’s really, really true for a horse that wants to get behind the leg. The more you use, the worse the issue will get. Now I’m far from perfect at this - but I really try to focus and keep him accountable to my aids every. single. time.
My mare is similar. Honest as the day is long but she will match her riders skill level.
i found fitness a big contributing factor - i had to do gallop sets etc to really help her strength. Lots of lateral work at walk to warm up and reinforced with a dressage whip if she wasn’t responsive to my leg. The biggest issue i actually found was shes not a quick thinker so lots of changes in the lateral work at walk also really helped her there. This translated to the laster and more collected work as it got harder she got hotter and more responsive but only if she was fit enough for the work.
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You purchased, on purpose, a “naturally flatter hunt type mover”.
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She has been ridden, on purpose, as a “lopey 3’ hunter packer”.
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Trainer is correct: she is a “minimalist”. That’s how she was bred, and that’s how she’s been asked to go, by you.
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You have “crossed off health, fitness and saddle fit issues” but you neglected to mention conformation. Is she built correctly for the more difficult requirements and expectations of a higher dressage level ? Probably not. See #1.
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Now her inability or lack of enthusiasm to do more difficult work has been "chalked up…as her ‘personality’. " See #1 and #2.
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She’s trying to tell you something.
I am blessed with a minimalist horse who has been very well trained and competed at PSG. We know she CAN do it. It’s up to me to figure out how to encourage her. Unlike your situation, there’s no question that if she’s behind my leg, it’s my problem.
What I find is (and YMMV), as she gets more fit for the work (she’s had a couple of years down) she is more enthusiastic. The more I ride from my seat (not heels/spurs), the better she likes it, the more variety in bending, the more she gets supple, the more she likes it. The more I like it, the more she likes it.
I just discovered on my own that warming up with lots of transitions (sometimes only two or three strides between) gets her much more responsive to my aids (and that’s something you could do on a hack, as well).
Anyway, I adore and feel so fortunate to have my minimalist. I hope you find the key to unlocking yours.
[QUOTE=pryme_thyme;8868225]
Interesting. The two whips and still little response ring a bell…
I would love to learn in hand work.
How do you cope with your lazy horse? I feel I resent mare when she gets this lazy… which is 80% of the time[/QUOTE]
I’m sure part of our problem is “mom-child” syndrome, because I bred him and broke him and have been the primary rider through his (failed) hunter career and now his dressage career (he’s currently at 4th level). He knows how to push my buttons (and vice versa) and yes, we do get VERY frustrated with each other at times. Several things keep me going: 1) I know he has the physical ability to go far in this sport; 2) from past experience I know the good ones often are not easy; and 3) I love the little crap head and won’t sell him, nor will I take up Western dressage which probably would be much more to his liking. When I get really fed up with him I throw my jumping saddle back on for a few days and take a break and then we go back at it. I will say the stronger he gets, the less we argue. But submission is never going to be his strong point (I always say he’s more of a Christian Grey type than an Ana, lol).
[QUOTE=RedmondDressage;8868659]
For horses like this you must insist that they react IMMEDIATELY to your aids. So for example, I will ask for more energy by adding a touch of leg. If I don’t get a reaction he gets some good pony club kicks with the leg until he goes FORWARD. Then go back to a quiet leg with little to no contact. Every time he tries to lose tempo without my asking he gets a single big kick to send him back forward, then super quiet leg. As Charlotte relayed at the clinic I attended - lazy horses should be ridden with the leg off, hot horses with the leg always on. I’m finding it’s really, really true for a horse that wants to get behind the leg. The more you use, the worse the issue will get. Now I’m far from perfect at this - but I really try to focus and keep him accountable to my aids every. single. time.[/QUOTE]
To follow on from this, make sure you are giving some sort of reward when pony does go forward, i.e. sit quiet again as Redmond describes. Sounds overly simple, but it’s so easy to fall into the trap of constantly legging a lazy horse just to keep them at the same pace. They get dull and resentful, nobody wins.
I’d also try and avoid too much anthropomorphism, you know, talking about a horse who is lazy, unmotivated, has no work ethic etc. Horses don’t think that way. When people talk like that, it shifts the blame onto the horse, whereas mostly the blame lies with the training, or the physical comfort of the horse, both of which are the rider’s responsibility. Sure, some horses have easier personalities than others! But they have no competition goals etc, they will always do what is easiest for them. The ideal training teaches them that the easiest course of action is to respond promptly to the rider’s aids. Pressure-response-release and all that. But sometimes we accidentally teach the horse that the easiest course of action is to ignore us, and tune us out. I’d be working on making sure that that hasn’t happened here.
I have ridden a few, very lazy, or laid back types. They are currently my favorites. You have to be consistent, everyday, every ride, every time…to correct the lazy response. Your light leg aid, always means something. If you use it once, and let it slip without the proper response, they will use it against you. As a rider/ trainer, you have to be hyper aware and totally consistent and very black and white. If you get lazy on what you expect, the horse will always go back to a minimal response. How often do I need to use a back up or a reminder…all of the time. It’s a never ending process, I use it whenever needed. I am as kind and as light as needed, and as quick to correct when the horse gets behind my leg. They are not easy horses to move up the levels because I have found you have to keep pushing them. I love the type though for other qualities.
I had a Dutch gelding about 30 years ago who was like that. Super gaits, incredible athlete, and zero ambition. Did not seem to feel leg, whip (one or two, overhand or regular grip), spur, anything. Like he had no nerve endings.
What finally really worked with him was when my instructor long-lined him, carrying a lunge whip while doing so and not hesitating to use it on him! She was quite masterful at long-lining. She did a LOT of running, bless her heart. Then sometimes she would put him on a lunge line when I was on him. When I would give a light leg aid, if he didn’t jump forward, she would get him with the lunge whip.
I had the most amazing rides of my life during that time. He was up and out in front of me; it was magical. For some reason that I can’t remember, we stopped doing all that, and he went back to his unresponsive ways. I ended up selling him because he was just not fun to ride.
[QUOTE=pryme_thyme;8867965]
Note- Mare really perks up on trails and on cross courses but good trails are hard to come by around here.[/QUOTE]
Can you do anything inside with jumping? trot poles?
I now board at a jumping/eventing barn and the more I do cross training the better my second level work has come. My horse is FAR FROM LAZY, in fact an eager beever, but even this horse will test me.
I suggest a jumping trainer for a month that can get her moving around in the arena staying off her back and do some grids. This should help her associate arena work with “fun”- but reinforce her dressage basics too!
This helped a mare I had that was really lazy, once she felt unrestricted she did a lot better.
Or (gasp) western riding one handed can work if you lack jumping trainers. Anything to get off the face and let them go on their own. Then you can start to ask again for collection.
Variety, it’s the best!
I have to add to this, my coach says there are two types of horse…Easy in the start, and hard at the end
hard at the start and easy at the end.
so the lazy ones, start easy…get on and go, very easy…very tough to finish as they are so laid back.
the ones that are hard to start, super sensitive, hot off the aids, want to over react, easy when they are made. as they are light and listen.
at 40 plus years old. give me the easy to start. I might have to be a little more physical, but they are safer. the other ones, when they are made…well I cannotor afford.
My question to all th experts would be how do you get from pony kicks reminiscent of Thellwell to said whisper of a calf tighten? My unmotivated OTTB wants to know?
[QUOTE=Abracadabra;8875538]
My question to all th experts would be how do you get from pony kicks reminiscent of Thellwell to said whisper of a calf tighten? My unmotivated OTTB wants to know?[/QUOTE]
ALWAYS release after any type of aid. Always give the light aid first. Always ensure your posture and the horse’s posture encourage forward movement. Always, always, always demand a proper response, even if it’s walking off from the mounting block.
My motivated but formerly sucked back OTTB was HARD to get to move. Now I ride him without whip and in spurs which are too short to reach him (because I use them on my other horse and am lazy.)
I just wanted to share and thank you all for your advice. I am trying everything!
I my last few rides I have had very good luck with the ‘legs off’ method as well as a couple, ridiculous looking :lol:, pony club kicks.
A stretchy canter also seems to boost her blood.
Let’s hope this continues!!!
[QUOTE=Gumby80;8869858]
I’d also try and avoid too much anthropomorphism, you know, talking about a horse who is lazy, unmotivated, has no work ethic etc. Horses don’t think that way. When people talk like that, it shifts the blame onto the horse, whereas mostly the blame lies with the training, or the physical comfort of the horse, both of which are the rider’s responsibility. Sure, some horses have easier personalities than others! But they have no competition goals etc, they will always do what is easiest for them. The ideal training teaches them that the easiest course of action is to respond promptly to the rider’s aids. Pressure-response-release and all that. But sometimes we accidentally teach the horse that the easiest course of action is to ignore us, and tune us out. I’d be working on making sure that that hasn’t happened here.[/QUOTE]
Agree 100%. I affectionately refer to my horse as an “energy conservationist”. He is willing and likes his job, but for years he was a reflection of my own standard of accepting a lack luster forward response. I didn’t demand it and so I essentially told him his B minus effort was good enough. Working with an instructor we had to reprogram his “go” button as well as mine. I think what has been the most important thing has been working with clinicians and instructors who have pin pointed lots of subtle but really critical ways I was cutting off the forward flow of energy. While changing my old body habits is something I will need to work on forever …it sure is worth the effort when the change makes a noticeable difference in the way my horse goes. Like you OP my horse and I sort of skated our way through second level. The jump to third level is physically challenging for my laid back horse who is learning to carry more weight behind which he never really did. He is rising to the challenge though and I think it’s because I don’t drill him on any one movement and try to vary the work, the difficulty and arenas we ride in. I’d be bored to death riding in a dressage arena all the time so I incorporate things he thinks are fun like cavaletti or trail/obstacle courses.
