Calling All Lazy but Fancy Horse Owners.

[pryme_thyme]

I think this thread creation is more a plea for hearing that others deal with this too, you know misery loves company
For those who can chime in - Would love to hear your ideas and what has worked for you.

My trials and tribulations began six years ago when I purchased a 2 y/o dwb/app filly as my next hunter/dressage prospect.
Mare is a naturally flatter hunt type mover, which is just perfect for our area where dressage and hunter judges appear to look for the similar movement. Longer, lower but engaged.
Total A++ personality. Quiet, reliable, safe, no prep but will toss an appy joke at you just to check that your listening.

Filly was born broke. Or so I thought. Now, it seems she is just very choosey where she exerts her energy.

In her first four years under saddle, myself with the help of various trainers have brought her up as a lopey 3’ hunter packer.
In the recent two years, I started to want more from my flat (dressage rides), which consume 80% of our time together.
With the help of a trainer, we have successfully shown training level with scores in high 70s, moved into first and now schooling second.
Now, that we are asking for more impulsion we have hit a wall. A very tall and hard, brick one. Yet trainer and I know she is very capable, just slow to motivate.

Trainer rides PSG and describes her as a ‘minimalist’.

We have crossed off health, fitness and saddle fit issues and chalked up this lack of energy as her ‘personality’.

Attempts at new motivators, whip, taking leg off, ‘swooshing’ whip, riding with two whips, clucking etc, work tremendously, with only random reminders for a few weeks then mare bores of these again and they stop working. I cannot even rotate them.
Mare is just too smart and too quiet.

Apologies for long, drawn out explanation but I feel stuck. I know mare has the fancy in there and has a ton more potential but I fear she just wants to be a kid horse or low level dressage horse.

Anyone else been through this? How did you accept it?

Note- Mare really perks up on trails and on cross courses but good trails are hard to come by around here.

[Windermere]

I rode a young gelding who was like that. A+ personality - the sweetest horse you’d ever meet on the ground. He was purchased when he was two with the intention of moving up the levels for dressage, and he was certainly bred for it. But he was not motivated to work. When his owner started schooling him after the baby rides were over, she ended up selling him to a hunter home.

Trying to force him into a job that he didn’t want to do just didn’t seem to be worth the effort, when he made a talented and beautiful hunter, and was very happy doing that.

[beowulf]

Try doing gallop sets or dressage work out in the field – to see if it is a fitness issue or if it’s ‘sandbox syndrome’. It is possible she may not love the job.

[pryme_thyme]

[QUOTE=Windermere;8868011]
I rode a young gelding who was like that. A+ personality - the sweetest horse you’d ever meet on the ground. He was purchased when he was two with the intention of moving up the levels for dressage, and he was certainly bred for it. But he was not motivated to work. When his owner started schooling him after the baby rides were over, she ended up selling him to a hunter home.

Trying to force him into a job that he didn’t want to do just didn’t seem to be worth the effort, when he made a talented and beautiful hunter, and was very happy doing that.[/QUOTE]

That is where I am stuck. I have grown very attached to the mare but being pretty type ‘A’ in everything I do I cannot settle for less than my goals… so torn!

[netg]

I intentionally don’t buy horses like this who I appreciate how lovely and beautiful they are, but I am lazy and don’t want to have to work so hard.

However, I’ve worked with them. It takes diligence of asking the horse to move forward energetically EVERY step. And you feel MEAN at first. You’re changing the rules, and changing them away from what seems natural to the horse. This type of horse will eventually wake up under saddle and be in front of the leg, but be peaceful and calm about it, if you are VERY consistent for however long it takes to get there - and never, ever let it backslide. That lack of consistency is why many horses are labelled “lower level super stars” but don’t progress.

I suspect if you’re also doing hunters you aren’t falling into the trap of holding too much, which is great. That’s one of the biggest problems with getting a horse to move - you’re stopping it at the same time. Make sure your legs are LOOSE on your horse, no gripping, no turning the toes out and holding your calves on for a strong leg-based base of support like helps you over jumps. Your forward aid should become a whisper of tightening the calf muscle - a slight heel down so the muscle bulks up and presses into your horse’s side. I actually ride my hot horses this way, too, but with a hot horse it makes them harder for other people to ride - with a horse who doesn’t volunteer, it makes them easier for anyone to ride. A bulking of the calf is your first aid, bump with the calf second aid, dressage whip backup your third. No horse likes the whip, and much prefers the softest aid possible. When it means also having to exert energy, different horses have different temperaments on what it takes to make that trade off work in your favor, though, and the whip aid may have to increase in firmness. I actually love to use a whip with a flat end (like a crop would have) and hit my boot instead of the horse. The loud SMACK sound has almost always been more effective for me than touching the horse with the whip when one is reluctant to move. Tickling with the whip tends to be more refinement in certain circumstances for me. That’s something to play with and see what works, though.

You should also look at feed and see if there is a change you can make there, and general management. Everyone always recommends this for hot horses, but it goes both ways. And of course all the other horsekeeping issues - saddle fit, hoofcare, blah blah blah. I suspect given your description of temperament none of those things are problems.

[Bogey2]

welcome to second level!!!:lol:

[pryme_thyme]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8868015]
Try doing gallop sets or dressage work out in the field – to see if it is a fitness issue or if it’s ‘sandbox syndrome’. It is possible she may not love the job.[/QUOTE]

Sandbox Syndrome. That is really interesting, I have never heard of that. I am going to do some research.
I thought possibly, ‘ring sour’ but that seemed to be trouble with horses exhibiting bad behavior and mare would rather die than buck, bolt, etc

[pryme_thyme]

[QUOTE=netg;8868036]
I intentionally don’t buy horses like this who I appreciate how lovely and beautiful they are, but I am lazy and don’t want to have to work so hard.

However, I’ve worked with them. It takes diligence of asking the horse to move forward energetically EVERY step. And you feel MEAN at first. You’re changing the rules, and changing them away from what seems natural to the horse. This type of horse will eventually wake up under saddle and be in front of the leg, but be peaceful and calm about it, if you are VERY consistent for however long it takes to get there - and never, ever let it backslide. That lack of consistency is why many horses are labelled “lower level super stars” but don’t progress.

I suspect if you’re also doing hunters you aren’t falling into the trap of holding too much, which is great. That’s one of the biggest problems with getting a horse to move - you’re stopping it at the same time. Make sure your legs are LOOSE on your horse, no gripping, no turning the toes out and holding your calves on for a strong leg-based base of support like helps you over jumps. Your forward aid should become a whisper of tightening the calf muscle - a slight heel down so the muscle bulks up and presses into your horse’s side. I actually ride my hot horses this way, too, but with a hot horse it makes them harder for other people to ride - with a horse who doesn’t volunteer, it makes them easier for anyone to ride. A bulking of the calf is your first aid, bump with the calf second aid, dressage whip backup your third. No horse likes the whip, and much prefers the softest aid possible. When it means also having to exert energy, different horses have different temperaments on what it takes to make that trade off work in your favor, though, and the whip aid may have to increase in firmness. I actually love to use a whip with a flat end (like a crop would have) and hit my boot instead of the horse. The loud SMACK sound has almost always been more effective for me than touching the horse with the whip when one is reluctant to move. Tickling with the whip tends to be more refinement in certain circumstances for me. That’s something to play with and see what works, though.

You should also look at feed and see if there is a change you can make there, and general management. Everyone always recommends this for hot horses, but it goes both ways. And of course all the other horsekeeping issues - saddle fit, hoofcare, blah blah blah. I suspect given your description of temperament none of those things are problems. :)[/QUOTE]

I really appreciate your post, thank you for taking the time to write it!
Yes, I truly feel she is stuck in the ‘Lower level superstar status’. How frustrating!
I have ridden only schooled horses through second level so being this is my first time to experience the ‘speed humps’ that are experienced while getting to this level I tend to worry, am I forcing a square into a circle? Or just trying to reshape the oval into a circle.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=pryme_thyme;8868039]
Sandbox Syndrome. That is really interesting, I have never heard of that. I am going to do some research.
I thought possibly, ‘ring sour’ but that seemed to be trouble with horses exhibiting bad behavior and mare would rather die than buck, bolt, etc[/QUOTE]

Different types of ring sour… Mine would never buck or bolt, but if I drill him (as in 2-3 days of straight ring work) I’ve noticed that his suppleness really starts to deteriorate. He’s a Consummate Professional and doesn’t know how to say ‘no’, so he tries but I see little glints of frustration by the third day if I don’t give him at least a day of no mental hammering.

He is talented and his body can do it, but his brain is not as strong and he definitely gets mental fatigue if we work too much on dressage. He needs the hacking and jumping days just as much as he needs the schooling days and I found that he progresses much more rapidly if we mix it up rather than if we spent two days in a row schooling.

I hope that’s not the case with your mare – or if it is, it’s an easy fix. It’s a tough position to be in when you have a horse that you love that is not suited for the discipline you love… hoping it’s just a case of ring blues and maybe even a case of “This New Job Is Hard” and not a personality conflict with the discipline.

[pryme_thyme]

[QUOTE=Bogey2;8868037]
welcome to second level!!!:lol:[/QUOTE]

Is it always this hard! :lol: the past six months have been a struggle…

Another mentioned feed… this is interesting as well. Mare is a VERY easy keeper.
Fed free choice hay and on pasture April to December until things ice up.
She always gets 1/2 cup of sweet feed to make her think she gets grain and a portion of Equine Super Diet supplement, am and pm.

She used to be on Brooks Fit and Fibre until she started to get uber chubbery! :lol:

[netg]

I have a friend whose mare is this type - AND she has a birth defect. I’ve mentioned her on this forum before. The mare has one cannon bone which wasn’t growing at birth and surgery helped get it to grow some, but it is still shorter than the other hind leg. It makes everything harder for this mare, and she was already the quiet type with a wonderful personality. For her, it took consistency when she was younger. Now she’s schooling FEI/I-1 type work, and she finds moving that way far easier - and magically volunteers more and has more easy energy to channel. As she has progressed she has gone that direction more and more as well. It takes correct progression, really using your transitions and lateral work to get the horse sitting more rather than just half halt and asking for a change of balance without that change in muscle development which helps.

[Manni01]

Not sure if this is a possibility, but if your mare is sound otherwise I agree with the idea that she might be ring sour. But I think somehow it is the fault of the rider because at some point something overwhelmed the mare and took away her enthusiasm for ring work.

So I would change the style of her work.

Try to keep the dressage work extremely short in the beginning. Maybe even only 2 rounds of trot. In these 2 rounds expect her to be perfect. Forward engaged and so on. Then you stop, give her the reins, praise her and go trail riding, or something else she likes…
Do this for some time and go from there. Eventually you can do longer periods of ring work, but what ever you do, do it perfect and engaged and praise her for everything. It doesn’t even matter if she is doing it right or not. Just give her the feeling she is doing awesome…and after a short period do something she likes.

Maybe if you continue to do this for some time she starts to be more confident about the whole dressage thing. She needs to get the feeling in short periods of time that Dressage is something she gets praised about.

If she is not totally lazy in all other parts of her work, I suspect that she just lost the fun in working and you have to show her that it can be fun…

[theresak]

[QUOTE=Bogey2;8868037]
welcome to second level!!!:lol:[/QUOTE]

I will second this. Also it sounds like your fancy horse has been able to “get by on good looks and natural talent” until now.

A lot of young fancy horses are asked to work well within their natural talent and praised for it until they get to second (or even third). Then you start asking them to change their natural balance (starting collection) and they protest because you just changed the rules. Besides the developing the physical strength she has not needed until now, you also have to develop the mental strength to take the pressure and exert herself.

Demand a proper response to forward, but also let her work within her comfort zone often. Also, make sure you are willing to really ask for the “yahoo” forward and you are not holding at all with your body. One fall/winter I set myself a goal to ride the medium canter so big it made me squeal.

Give it 1 whole year at schooling second level before you determine it’s totally her attitude.

[pryme_thyme]

[QUOTE=theresak;8868089]
I will second this. Also it sounds like your fancy horse has been able to “get by on good looks and natural talent” until now.

A lot of young fancy horses are asked to work well within their natural talent and praised for it until they get to second (or even third). Then you start asking them to change their natural balance (starting collection) and they protest because you just changed the rules. Besides the developing the physical strength she has not needed until now, you also have to develop the mental strength to take the pressure and exert herself.

Demand a proper response to forward, but also let her work within her comfort zone often. Also, make sure you are willing to really ask for the “yahoo” forward and you are not holding at all with your body. One fall/winter I set myself a goal to ride the medium canter so big it made me squeal.

Give it 1 whole year at schooling second level before you determine it’s totally her attitude.[/QUOTE]

Woah! What you said here hit something for me…
I read your post for the second time to connect the dots. I think you have connected all the dots for me…
Being that she has gotten by with just giving me what she does naturally I was not actually asking that she ‘work’.
Now, that I am asking her to bring up the shoulders and drive more from behind, it is work!

It also likely does not help that I keep asking/demand it until I get it and continue on.
I likely should call it a day at that point. Go for a trail. Good points.

[rizzodm]

[QUOTE=Windermere;8868011]
I rode a young gelding who was like that. A+ personality - the sweetest horse you’d ever meet on the ground. He was purchased when he was two with the intention of moving up the levels for dressage, and he was certainly bred for it. But he was not motivated to work. When his owner started schooling him after the baby rides were over, she ended up selling him to a hunter home.

Trying to force him into a job that he didn’t want to do just didn’t seem to be worth the effort, when he made a talented and beautiful hunter, and was very happy doing that.[/QUOTE]

Sounds a lot like my horse however he loves the lateral work and has discovered his balanced canter. Just recently he has started to march up to the barn when I get him out of the pasture, where I used to feel like I was dragging him up to the barn. He is still lazy but as his education is growing he is definitley more willing.

[pryme_thyme]

I thought I was the only person with a horse-tote. :lol:
Glad to hear it can improve!

[rb5007]

Mine has little respect for me, my two dressage whips or my giant spurs with rowels. But he wakes up and takes note when my trainer works him with a whip in hand, with and without me in the saddle. Suddenly there’s a really nice passage-y trot there. Have to keep after him all the time though - he would really just prefer to be a trail horse.

[pryme_thyme]

[QUOTE=rb5007;8868198]
Mine has little respect for me, my two dressage whips or my giant spurs with rowels. But he wakes up and takes note when my trainer works him with a whip in hand, with and without me in the saddle. Suddenly there’s a really nice passage-y trot there. Have to keep after him all the time though - he would really just prefer to be a trail horse.[/QUOTE]

Interesting. The two whips and still little response ring a bell…
I would love to learn in hand work.

How do you cope with your lazy horse? I feel I resent mare when she gets this lazy… which is 80% of the time

[luvmycabanaboy]

I have one! I have one! His dream in life is to get stolen by a six year old and flop around at w/t occasionally and mostly eat lots of carrots…sorry buddy!

I had a lightbulb moment with mine when a clinician told me I was creating plenty of energy behind, but I had to catch it in front and complete the energy circle. SO many people had told me that I needed to “leave the front door open” to allow forward, but no, I have had much more success creating any sort of lift by having MORE contact than I was comfortable with at the beginning (as an eventer with a hunter background).

[MysticOakRanch]

You mention she is a very easy keeper - have you ruled out physical issues? I only ask because I ran into this - my mare was very forward and motivated. Then she wasn’t. She was also struggling with weight issues. Turns out she is insulin resistant. So once I got her blood glucose under control, it got kind of better, although not as good as she was before. You might check for metabolic issues. Then, assuming no issues there, saddle fits, feet and hocks aren’t sore, back isn’t sore, I’d add some energy to her diet (which means fats - flax and vitamin E are safe fats to start with).

Then look at training - there is no acceptable answer except GO. That might mean one person on the ground to back up the GO aid. Make sure you aren’t blocking her in any way. You ask for go, the person on the ground backs it up (with a lunge whip), and you don’t pull her back - take whatever she gives you, even if it is a bolt.

Once GO is established, then look at lateral work to help create lift and power.