Can a foal be rejected after three months..?

[WOAPE]

Hello all,

Recently discovered this site and joined today hoping for a few opinions on the following…

Earlier this year, we got our first horse, a beautiful Palomino colt paint horse born in May. His dam was one of twins - sadly, the other twin and their mother died, so she was up against it right from the start. This is her first foal and from day one, she has been absolutely perfect - really protective of the little guy and very good with us when we have spent time around them both. To cut a long story short, the staff at the stables (who are on their way out) don’t really get along with us and have made comments about the foal being rejected since day one…and this week, they even told our friend that the mare has stopped showing interest in the little guy. During our visits over the last few days, I can confirm she has nursed him and chased off other horses that come close, just as she has always done…but she does seem to not be quite as attentive. Yesterday, I was around them for several hours and the foal seemed exhausted…didn’t even eat any grass during that period and just drank from his mother. I read somewhere that when a foal is around three months, the mare can start to grow a little colder toward him/her but just wanted to hear other opinions. Thanks for your time.

[Didi]

My first foal is now three months old. His mother is the number one mother of all time and always has been. I have also seen a definite change in her attentiveness lately - she lets him wander farther away, she leaves him a fair distance away when he is sleeping (she used to stand right beside him and not even graze!), etc. She also “disciplines” him - biting him back when he bites her, lightly kicking at him when he is being obnoxious, etc. Finally, she doesn’t always let him nurse. She will squirm around and not let him latch - things like that. Other times, she allows it just fine. I think it is part of the natural weaning process and nothing to worry about as far as I have learned.

[WOAPE]

Thanks for your reply Didi, I appreciate your comments. Our little guy is three months next weekend and as I said in my original post, his mum has been outstanding…just now, especially with the comment made by somebody at the yard…makes us concerned is all. Will be heading over there shortly anyway, may have an update later.

[camohn]

If he’s still nursing he isn’t rejected. Babies sleep a lot too. Look at his gums if you are concerned about his hydration levels. But all in all probably mom naturally starting to push him off a bit. Mares vary a lot in mommy hood. Some are horrid to wean even way down the pike , others tire rather quickly of the little pest and seem relieved at weaning time!

[Didi]

I look forward to the update! As others with WAY more experience than I on this Forum will tell you, just because someone is competent to be barn staff (or a trainer, etc) doesn’t necessarily mean they know anything about breeding/babies.

[heronponie]

Ignore the people at your barn. It sounds like they have been giving you bad advice right from the start- why would you start listening to them now?

You’ve been given good advice here. 3 months is a normal timeframe for baby to start gaining some independance and mom to relax her watchfulness a bit.

[JB]

[QUOTE=WOAPE;8248759]
the foal seemed exhausted…didn’t even eat any grass during that period and just drank from his mother.[/QUOTE]

This concerns me more than anything. Is it very hot where you are? Where are you?

3 months is about when many mares are starting to “let go” a little - not caring when the foal races off and doesn’t come back, as long as she can still see him; not putting up with his antics towards her as much, or at all; getting really serious about discipline. But allowing him to nurse, as long as he’s being respectful of her, means she isn’t remotely rejecting him. How silly that they told you that

But you need to get out there as often as possible right now and check on him. Seeming exhausted is worrisome. Take his temperature. Call your vet and discuss things with him/her.

Maybe I’m a bit jaded, but after ready so many horror stories here about “barn staff who doesn’t like us” doing things to clients’ horses that should not be done, I would be very visible around the farm on a regular basis, at as many different hours as you can. It’s one thing if it’s an adult, but when there’s a foal involved, that just worries me.

[Sugarbrook]

As a long time pony breeder I feel I should mention that 3 months is prime time for a baby to get Rhodococcus (also called foal pneumonia), and first symptom could be resting and, or, sleeping more than normal. It can progress rapidly from that point.

[Manni01]

And I would be checking the foals health first of all. Maybe it is not eating because it has something… At three month, they will survive without drinking milk all the time, because they are already starting to eat other things. I would be very concerned that it seems exhausted… Does he get regular deworming???

[Manni01]

[QUOTE=Sugarbrook;8248973]
As a long time pony breeder I feel I should mention that 3 months is prime time for a baby to get Rhodococcus (also called foal pneumonia), and first symptom could be resting and, or, sleeping more than normal. It can progress rapidly from that point.[/QUOTE]
similar thought at the same time…

[JB]

At 3 months he wouldn’t have needed much deworming.

He SHOULD have been dewormed at 8 weeks (some do 6, but that’s iffy in terms of parasite maturation and being targeted), then at 12 (so now-ish), and of course with appropriate chemicals.

[Foxtrot_s]

Obviously - you have checked his vital signs and gums and hydration? - just checking.

[Manni01]

[QUOTE=JB;8248998]
At 3 months he wouldn’t have needed much deworming.

He SHOULD have been dewormed at 8 weeks (some do 6, but that’s iffy in terms of parasite maturation and being targeted), then at 12 (so now-ish), and of course with appropriate chemicals.[/QUOTE]
I understood that OP is not keeping this foal at his/her home. And I do remember that there was one case here on COTH where somebody did loose a weanling because of no/bad deworming schedule.
Of course I don’t know whether this foal has been properly dewormed, but this is always my first thing to check, because it can foals affect badly, even for their future life, and its usually easy to check. But I also agree with Sugarbrook that there might be other health reasons for the foal to appear exhausted. So I would definite check the foal very thoroughly for problems, because they are the fragile part. If mom was a good mom for three months, its not very probably she turns into a bad mom suddenly.
But something to consider, if the foal gets weak for whatever reason it will not drink as much any more. So if moms milkbar gets uncomfortable for her because its too full she might seem unfriendly because it is hurting… So I would also check moms milkbar first.
These are the little easy things you can do immediately and sometimes they do tell a lot already.

[st_francis]

This is a little out there but may the the barn staff are doing something to him .

[BeeHoney]

Have a vet out to check the foal right away if it is not behaving normally. It does not sound to me like your mare is rejecting the foal, it sounds to me like it may need veterinary attention. Ask your vet for a routine vaccination/deworming schedule when s/he is there.

Also, it is not optimal for a mare and foal to be pastured with a mixed herd–generally broodmares with foals are kept with other broodmares and foals, not with other random geldings/mares.

[JB]

[QUOTE=Manni01;8249260]
I understood that OP is not keeping this foal at his/her home. And I do remember that there was one case here on COTH where somebody did loose a weanling because of no/bad deworming schedule.
Of course I don’t know whether this foal has been properly dewormed, but this is always my first thing to check, because it can foals affect badly, even for their future life, and its usually easy to check. But I also agree with Sugarbrook that there might be other health reasons for the foal to appear exhausted. So I would definite check the foal very thoroughly for problems, because they are the fragile part. If mom was a good mom for three months, its not very probably she turns into a bad mom suddenly.
But something to consider, if the foal gets weak for whatever reason it will not drink as much any more. So if moms milkbar gets uncomfortable for her because its too full she might seem unfriendly because it is hurting… So I would also check moms milkbar first.
These are the little easy things you can do immediately and sometimes they do tell a lot already.[/QUOTE]

I totally agree! Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply …not sure what lol Boarded or at home, it’s up to an owner to be educated on basic health things. 3 months and never dewormed isn’t the worst thing, but it’s absolutely something to consider, you are right.

I do hope the OP checks this thread today and takes to heart the need for TPR and a vet call.

[crosscreeksh]

[QUOTE=heronponie;8248865]
Ignore the people at your barn. It sounds like they have been giving you bad advice right from the start- why would you start listening to them now?

You’ve been given good advice here. 3 months is a normal timeframe for baby to start gaining some independance and mom to relax her watchfulness a bit.[/QUOTE]

THIS!!! Sounds like the barn people are unaware or uncaring!! Mares prepare their foals for future life, but if she is still letting him nurse it is part of his education…not rejection!!

[WOAPE]

Many thanks to everybody for their replies, I appreciate you all sharing your thoughts, comments and advice…it is most welcome!

Just got back from the stables area - we live in Central Europe, about 50 miles from where the horses are. Two friends live on site and have their horses there too. So, an update…today, he was better…lying down when I arrived but spent the majority of the afternoon walking around and nibling the grass…and he also nursed a few times too, which was obviously great to see. Also, he had a few bits of munched up carrot which he seemed to enjoy thoroughly. We gave his mum a multi-vitamin mix today which we picked up yesterday from the horse supplies store nearby - staff were very helpful and suggested this one as we honestly don’t know if the horses are being cared for / attended to or even fed properly.

To explain a little more about the staff…because I understand that reading the thread without knowing why I am complaining about them doesn’t exactly put the reader in the know…well, I can honestly say that since the 3 mares and their foals (5 months, 3 months and 2 months) were moved to their outdoor summer area (no night box, just a shelter) at the start of July, the staff aren’t visible in that particular area of the land much…and have done nothing about the lack of fencing. And I mean a TOTAL lack of fencing. Thin, flexible plastic poles with loosely attached tape…yeah…that is REALLY going to hold back an inquisitve horse / foal…well, we saw the foals head through the “fencing” as if it weren’t even there…and then wander back when mum noticed they weren’t around. As we don’t live there, I can’t watch them nonstop - believe me if I could I would. But even despite the lack of security, the horses were seemingly punished for 3 days by being kept in one of their spare boxes…after two days away (work), I arrived and was told by a friend who keeps her horse there that the mares and foals were basically locked up for the last 2 days. When questioned, the staff told us "yes, I won’t go chasing horses that are escaping every time I turn away, so they are in the box…they’ll go to a different area tomorrow and stay out all night…provided they don’t try to escape". I walked away straight to the boxes and brought them out for a few hours to feed on the grass nearby, this, I repeated until they were moved a day later to another field - which thankfully, has some form of fencing…not great but keeps them together better than before anyway. Obviously, as the staff are on their way out (we just learned the owners have sold up as they have had enough of the management who were renting the land), they couldn’t care less. I can’t wait to see the back of these people…sooner the better.

Tomorrow, we’ll be calling and arranging a vet visit asap as some of the conditions mentioned above are worrying.

BeeHoney, yes, I agree and we couldn’t believe our eyes when we saw how almost twenty horses - different ages / gender were all together…and this happened during the last few days when the temp got up to 40c (104f)…and guess what…the water supply could also be much better…but that is another issue.

We already have his future home reserved…a place much closer to us is ready for when he is ready to leave his mum - we don’t own the mare, she is owned by a friend of a friend…if we did, they would have been moved already. The place we found is really nice, very clean, well organized and without staff who behave like prison guards.

Thanks again to all.

Carl

[SportArab]

I have had mares start to shut down the spigot around 3 months. Almost all of my mares are letting their babies roam on their own by this time. The dam of the filly born this year (the mare’s 7th) is getting grouchy about nursing at night in the stall. I hear her kicking the wall with her hind foot on the side opposite from where the filly is nursing.

[Didi]

I am so glad you have made other arrangements. It sounds like you DEFINITELY have the best interests of your foal at heart. I would recommend weaning him ASAP -3 months is not too early though 6 months is optimal. I think (and, as they say, opinions are like… ) the harm of keeping him hemmed up in a stall because he might “escape” or the other examples of poor care are far worse than a rather early weaning. Fellow COTHer’s, feel free to disagree as I know some of you have a lot more experience than do I, but this is my $.02.