Can Curling BTB be a Sign of Back Pain?

[kodabear1]

I adopted my first horse, a 3 year old OTTB, back in January. He was only raced once, so he was not on the track for very long. He has since turned 4. Since I got him, we have been dealing with him curling behind the bit, especially in canter, after jumping, and generally when he is feeling fresh. He just gets so on the forehand and totally evades contact when I try to ask him to rock back onto his hind end and lift his head up. We’ve mostly worked it out from the trot at this point, and it does seem to be improving at the canter a bit but still remains a big obstacle in our riding.

He went through a bucking phase for a few months this summer where anytime he would pick up the canter he would buck, and every few steps he would buck. I got a saddle fitter out and got him a different saddle, which he did not buck in for ~ 3 months until the other day when it felt like we were back to square one with extreme curling and bucking. Granted, he may have just been fresh, but now I am a bit paranoid. He has a shorter neck, so it makes it easy for him to curl and when he’s down there, it constantly feels like he is going to buck. I’ve tried multiple different kinds of bits, but he curls in anything. He has had chiro and bodywork and other than needing some minor adjustments, has looked pretty good. No signs of girthiness or being upset when putting the saddle on.

I am wondering if anyone has had the experience of a horse curling due to back pain. That, combined with the bucking, is making me wonder if this is more than just a training issue. I have been trying to put off getting X-rays to look for KS as I am hoping these could just be baby TB shenanigans (not to mention they are very expensive!), but perhaps it is time I bite the bullet for peace of mind.

Any thoughts or experiences are appreciated!

[JB]

@kodabear1

He just gets so on the forehand and totally evades contact when I try to ask him to rock back onto his hind end and lift his head up.

How are you asking for him to rock back?

What sort of “start back at ground zero” was done when you got him?

With what you’re describing, he definitely shouldn’t be jumping, not only because there could be an underlying pain issue, but because there’s more room for him to practice behavior you don’t want, warranted or not

Back pain (including kissing spine), sore hocks, sore feet, sore anything, could cause this. This doesn’t sound like simply baby shenanigans. At the very least there are big holes in his flat work training, at worst there are real physical issues.

Can you add a conformation-type photo? If it’s good enough, including him filling the frame, we can get a good idea of what his feet look like as well

[kodabear1]

I try to get him to rock back by engaging him on a circle, sitting in, lifting my hands up as needed when he curls, and providing lots of leg support. Even if I need to do this every two strides, it helps him to lift himself up and I am then able to give with the reins.

He had months of downtime at the rescue and I have done quite a bit of groundwork with him and am starting to explore more ground-based biomechanics. We only did flatwork for the first several months and he is only jumping small 2’ jumps and x-rails once a week or so.

His heels are slightly underrun and we have been working to fix those, but otherwise have very good feet for a TB and has been fine barefoot. I should also note I had a dentist out when I first got him and his teeth were in desperate need of a floating. I have a dentist coming back out to make sure there’s nothing else going on in his mouth.

[beowulf]

Do you have videos you’d feel comfortable sharing?

It is anyone’s guess, but I’m a big believer in occam’s razor - start with the simplest explanation first. My experience is that’s feet first, then back. Sometimes they avoid contact because they aren’t comfortable pushing from behind. If he is barefoot, consider it may be low grade chronic pain from being footsore. I find a lot of young TBs struggle with the transition from track-shod to sport-shod, and have great feet on their own merit, but the angles on the track really butcher them.

[fivestrideline]

@beowulf

If he is barefoot, consider it may be low grade chronic pain from being footsore.

This. IME they’re sore on all 4, so they don’t look lame to most people. They move evenly, but just feel… meh. Sometimes it presents in weird ways like fussiness or rushing or balking. TBs absolutely can go barefoot - and this is NOT a knock on OP - but I see plenty of OTTBs advertised as “totally sound barefoot!” and the horse moves with that flashy, toe flingy, lots of action gait that usually corresponds with footiness. Get the feet happy, and the horse moves MUCH better. Many can ultimately go barefoot once the angles are corrected and true sole depth is built. As with anything, YMMV.

Having gone down the “good quality bare feet but does best in 4 shoes” road before, it’s worth trying. I wouldn’t just slap regular steel open heeled shoes on - personally mine goes in composites with frog support but has done steels with frog pads. I notice a huge improvement in the shoes vs boots vs bare.

All of this said, I have a curler. That’s his go-to, always has been. It’s not an uncommon evasion learned on the track. Unfortunately the curler IS my KS/NPA/suspensory/neurological horse… but I’m not convinced the curling alone is a sign of those issues.

[kodabear1]

This is very helpful. After his last trim, he did get what we think was a long-lasting stone bruise in which he was very mildly lame for several weeks. He is only finally starting to work out of it. I am so torn because I see so many advocating for bare feet, and I am a big believer myself, but like you said, perhaps the foot cannot heal itself first without corrective shoeing. It might be worth trying another farrier as well. My current one has never actually asked to watch my horse move and I have been trying to tell him about his toe first landings for a while now.

[fivestrideline]

I like composites for this reason, they’re flexible and can split the difference between shod and bare. Same with boots, but my horse does significantly better in shoes than boots.

It could definitely be something else, but I’m with Beowulf - start at the most simple or the bottom of the horse and go up.

[Showbizz]

I have nothing but 30 years of experience to back this up, but IME most curling has to do with the hind end. A horse who can’t “push” from the motor can’t push into your hand.

[kodabear1]

I’d be happy to share a video with you directly, but don’t want to publicly post one.

I’ve had two farriers just say ‘his feet look great’. The first didn’t even mention the underrun heels, and the second seems to just rush and has never actually watched him move. I always just assumed they were fine, but perhaps it’s time to investigate that a bit more.

[endlessclimb]

I’d like to mention the horse is 3, and you havent had him a full year yet. It takes years to build the strength and understanding to sit.

[kodabear1]

Absolutely! I totally understand that and agree with it. And I know some horses are more naturally balanced than others - we are certainly the latter! But that combined with the proclivity to buck and suck back has me wondering if it is potentially pain causing the reluctance to sit back. I have read a lot of btb opinions and forums, but I’d never seen anything about back/stifle/other pain. Most suggest checking mouth (which we are doing), but I was just curious to hear others experiences on ruling out possible sources of pain.

[endlessclimb]

I vote a minor check up and double check saddle fit, but otherwise - he’s 3. Lots of body changes going on, and you can chase ghosts forever and not find anything. Take it back a few notches for a month or two and then try asking again.

[kodabear1]

Four now, but nonetheless, yes, still very young. He had a few growth spurts this year and I’m sure is still growing a bit and filling out more. Getting a vet out this week just to assess for anything obvious with teeth, feet, back, etc. Pending a hopefully clear exam, going to try a new plan of attack focused on a lot of ground-based balance work.

[millerra]

My main OTTB is built, at best, even front to back, with a low set on neck. He also has kissing spines. He also has a straight hind end. As a youngster, he ran around on his front end, curled, jumped over his front end and bucked. Sounds sort of like your horse… At age 11, he is now stepping under from behind, sitting, and rarely, if ever curls. He jumps great and over all does well even in dressage tests for eventing. He doesn’t seem to have back pain. He doesn’t really buck at all unless 1) his saddle needs adjusting; 2) his girth is too loose and sliding around or 3) he’s lit up. I got him at 3. He is now 11. The real turn around started between 8 and 9. He is now 11. It has taken years, but now that it’s not my first rodeo, it would probably progress faster but it still takes YEARS.

What made the difference? [not saying you are doing or not doing any of the below]

always ride his poll up; never ride his head except to push his neck/shoulders up. Reins and bit are there to go into.

Straight, straight, straight. OTTBs come off the track crooked. Mine tends to tip the right shoulder in, swing the left hind out. Lots and lots of gentle, please get straighter and more vertical with the core. To this day, we always work on straightness, where are the parts. Only once they are straight can they even begin to push from behind. On mine, I can not demand/force straightness - it is something worked in to.

Push comes before sit.

For the back strength we always find time to lunge w/ side reins and a belly band. Hill work is a key component of our work just to strengthen his entire posterior chain.

Is your horse sore and causing the bucking - my guess would be yes but I also think you are trying to ask for things he is simply not capable of - so work on the feet, work on the back strength and ask for more simple things like straight, forward and ears on top. That may be all he can be working towards.

Been there, done that, have the T-shirt.

[kodabear1]

I don’t have a good current confirmation photo. Here is one from probably a year ago at this point before he got to the rescue. He has filled out and muscled up quite a bit, and is a bit less butt high than this photo, but hopefully this gives you some information.

[JB]

Handsome! But, can’t see his feet well enough. The angle of the coronet bands don’t make me think there’s anything dramatically off, but without seeing the whole feet…

[kodabear1]

Here are his front feet a few days after most recent trim!

[IPEsq]

Curling is a way to avoid throughness, which can be caused by many things including lack of appropriate strength. The bucking part can definitely be back/low back/SI. That you had some improvement with change in saddle would make me start there (saddle) since time has past and you said he’s been growing. And then really evaluate if he knows how to push from behind. If not, then he probably can’t sit. You may want to swap out your half halt for full transitions for a little bit and see if that helps the relaxation part.

[ThreeWishes]

Lovely horse! Just a quick thought from 1 picture. That prominent wither with his back where the saddle would sit level probably would make fitting a challenge.

[kodabear1]

Yes…I think I trialed about 15 saddles before finding one that fit…but thankfully it fits him well and perhaps is due to get adjusted. Thankfully I went with something wool flocked for this reason, as his back is still growing and changing!