Can Dressage and reining training mixed for a horse?

[pluvinel]

@Scribbler

…

But I think some of the big WB or harness horse types that give spectacular trots in dressage might not be as handy in reining and might struggle with a sliding stop. Also dressage training goes a lot slower.

The “spectacular trots” that the WB’s are currently judged on is just because dressage judging has now devolved into a materiale class that focuses on a gaboinga trot almost exclusively.

When the L-program states that “You start with the gaits…” then dressage is no longer a test of the horse’s training.

I like the video upthread because it shows how much better a “dressage” horse moves when it is not held onto its face and the rider rides from the seat.

The “refiners” harken to a tradition of a working horse who had to follow the rider’s eye to see what calf would be cut. In the PAST, (the very long-ago past) dressage was a test of the horse’s training. Not so much now.

I believe that any rider who wants to learn how to improve their communication with their horse can benefit from any horse training that focuses on light aids and clear communications.

[CHT]

I rode in a reining clinic for fun on my former dressage mare, and there was a lot of useful information that helped with lateral suppleness and warming her up. I don’t feel the two sports have that much in common though: their “training scale” would be far different. Reiners are creating a “broke” and responsive horse, whereas Dressage is seemingly more about creating power & suspension, and developing the gaits. (not that reiners aren’t powerful in their own way). That said though, some reining horses are just taught the moves, rather than being broke in a useful way…just like some dressage horses.

[TMares]

They are after two different goals. Reiners want 100% submission and a horse ready to shut it down and back up…fast. that’s not dressage.

[SorrelGelding1]

I think your horse should be able to do everything and anything. Although, I have seen some difficulties with a horse jumping between sorting and cutting. In sorting you’re pushing the calves, in numerical order, to a different holding pen. In cutting, you’re separating one calf and keeping it from returning to the herd. They are sorta opposites. I know some girls who would rather die than use their barrel horse for anything but barrels. I’ve heard ever excuse under the sun- “I don’t want her using the ‘wrong’ muscles” “she isn’t bred for it” “he doesn’t liking doing anything else” I think that’s a load of bull crap.

I have worked with some amazing cutting/reining trainers who sought out dressage training. In both disciplines you’re controlling every part of the horses body…the only difference is how you’re asking. I do not do dressage, but from what I can tell, you’re using direct rein contact. In cutting and reining, a loose rein is used. As long as, you’re able to balance that and the horse is able to understand what you’re asking, I think you would be fine.

On a side note, I use different schooling and competition bits. I believe the horse knows the difference. I’d think that would be same for a Western vs English saddle.

[yohseeme]

@Manni01

some questions… what breed is your horse?? and why is it easier to control all parts of the horses body in reining, then in Dressage?? (I am not really familiar with reining so I am curious)… I would assume that learning how to do reining will be difficult as well…

My horse is ASH/TB gelding. In reining instructer teaches riders to train horses to respond with gentle touch with rein on shoulder, very small movement of the rein, small shift of the weight, etc…if my horse can be responsive to the aid like that I wonder if it helps greatly in Dressage.

[yohseeme]

@pluvinel

The “spectacular trots” that the WB’s are currently judged on is just because dressage judging has now devolved into a materiale class that focuses on a gaboinga trot almost exclusively.

When the L-program states that “You start with the gaits…” then dressage is no longer a test of the horse’s training.

I like the video upthread because it shows how much better a “dressage” horse moves when it is not held onto its face and the rider rides from the seat.

The “refiners” harken to a tradition of a working horse who had to follow the rider’s eye to see what calf would be cut. In the PAST, (the very long-ago past) dressage was a test of the horse’s training. Not so much now.

I believe that any rider who wants to learn how to improve their communication with their horse can benefit from any horse training that focuses on light aids and clear communications.

Thank you, I will take it as an advice for greater communication skill in any discipline.

[yohseeme]

@SorrelGelding1

I think your horse should be able to do everything and anything. Although, I have seen some difficulties with a horse jumping between sorting and cutting. In sorting you’re pushing the calves, in numerical order, to a different holding pen. In cutting, you’re separating one calf and keeping it from returning to the herd. They are sorta opposites. I know some girls who would rather die than use their barrel horse for anything but barrels. I’ve heard ever excuse under the sun- “I don’t want her using the ‘wrong’ muscles” “she isn’t bred for it” “he doesn’t liking doing anything else” I think that’s a load of bull crap.

I have worked with some amazing cutting/reining trainers who sought out dressage training. In both disciplines you’re controlling every part of the horses body…the only difference is how you’re asking. I do not do dressage, but from what I can tell, you’re using direct rein contact. In cutting and reining, a loose rein is used. As long as, you’re able to balance that and the horse is able to understand what you’re asking, I think you would be fine.

On a side note, I use different schooling and competition bits. I believe the horse knows the difference. I’d think that would be same for a Western vs English saddle.

Thank you for your opinion which helped me understand that if my horse can handle the difference in those discipline. I may continue both disciprine and review well with him to have clear understnading. I’m more worrying about different contact and correction and hope the difference doesn’t confuse him mentally, I will make it clear like a different aid. I don’t worry about his physical side.

[yohseeme]

@TMares

They are after two different goals. Reiners want 100% submission and a horse ready to shut it down and back up…fast. that’s not dressage.

I totally agree and know it is not Dressage at all, but I wonder if I can use some of that techniques applied in Dressage for submission and responsiveness…and rein back.

[yohseeme]

N

@CHT

I rode in a reining clinic for fun on my former dressage mare, and there was a lot of useful information that helped with lateral suppleness and warming her up. I don’t feel the two sports have that much in common though: their “training scale” would be far different. Reiners are creating a “broke” and responsive horse, whereas Dressage is seemingly more about creating power & suspension, and developing the gaits. (not that reiners aren’t powerful in their own way). That said though, some reining horses are just taught the moves, rather than being broke in a useful way…just like some dressage horses.

Thank you for your reply and opinion. I don’t like the very “broken” posture of horse in reining, I could use it for long & low trot or free walk, turn on hunches etc, I may be careful knowing their goals are very different and apply reining teaching in applicable movement in dressage.

[yohseeme]

@GramV

I think dressage and reining are a lot closer than dressage and H/J. There are a lot of similarities in what is asked and how they are trained. Reining asks for more quickness and a looser rein.

I think it would be hard to “train” or compete in both disciplines, but if you use principals from both, I think that can work fine. I have done some reining/cutting/team penning with my dressage horses and they love it. Learning to sit a slide stop really helped me learn to sit deep in a saddle but relax.

As said, though, going back and forth between working on a steady contact and a loopy one is not going to work too well.

Thank you for your great point, I still keep rein weight contact and not letting go totally loose. I have lots of respect in reining but I will use only principals then as dressage is my main disciprine.

[TMares]

@yohseeme

I totally agree and know it is not Dressage at all, but I wonder if I can use some of that techniques applied in Dressage for submission and responsiveness…and rein back.

You don’t want it for the rein back. Reiner’s want those horses to zoom backwards. Dressage requires that the horse back up with even diagonal pairs, calmly and on or in front of the vertical.

I have a hunch you have a horse that is above and against the bit and you want to get him down and round and submissive to you. I don’t think you’re going to be happy with what you get if you mash the two together. You might feel like you got somewhere in the short run with a horse that breaks at C3 and hides behind the Bridle but that won’t get you anywhere in dressage.

[browneyedcowgirl]

A dear friend of mine had a mare that was originally a Reining horse (for a few years). They trained her to be a H/J youth champ. That horse could run a jump course and come in for the oxer on a hair-pin turn. But I digress.
In my opinion mixing disciplines can be both beneficial for the horses education as well as for gaining more movement/skill. As long as your horse doesn’t have any physical limitations that would make reining a challenging, go for it. I will note that reining can put excessive strain on back legs/hocks, with that sliding stop. So maybe stop short of teaching any fancy warmblood that move. They aren’t really built for it.

[exploding_pony]

@TMares

They are after two different goals. Reiners want 100% submission and a horse ready to shut it down and back up…fast. that’s not dressage.

This. I’ve spent some time around both reiners and reined cow trainers (boarded at facilities that have both). I don’t mean to generalize but I have had very, very bad experiences with the training methods and consider them extremely abusive. The horses are expected to be 100% submissive at all costs.

Example: The method of teaching a horse to stand quietly is to tie it up for like 6 hours without water or feed when the temp is around 100. It’s horrific and it’s actually illegal here in CA (minimum standard regulations: you can tether a horse for 1 hr then have to offer water and not more than 2 hrs).

And I’ve seen it done over and over by trainers in this discipline.

The horses that survive are certainly broke, but it’s horrible.

IME the horses are considered somewhat disposable. If they get hurt or are not submissive, they disappear.

[x-halt-salute]

@exploding pony

This. I’ve spent some time around both reiners and reined cow trainers (boarded at facilities that have both). I don’t mean to generalize but I have had very, very bad experiences with the training methods and consider them extremely abusive. The horses are expected to be 100% submissive at all costs.

Example: The method of teaching a horse to stand quietly is to tie it up for like 6 hours without water or feed when the temp is around 100. It’s horrific and it’s actually illegal here in CA (minimum standard regulations: you can tether a horse for 1 hr then have to offer water and not more than 2 hrs).

And I’ve seen it done over and over by trainers in this discipline.

The horses that survive are certainly broke, but it’s horrible.

IME the horses are considered somewhat disposable. If they get hurt or are not submissive, they disappear.

Agreed. I’ve shared space with reiners in 3 different barns in 3 different time zones during the last 10 years. I’ve seen some horrific methods used to achieve the quiet, responsive, “broke” horse that discipline aims for. Not saying every single reining trainer works that way, but my experience has been that some very widespread training methods in reining are antithetical to the principles of dressage at the very least.

Someone upthread asked me to admit that a 5 year old reining horse will be different from a 5 year old dressage horse in terms of greenness. I won’t argue with that. But I’d personally much rather have a 5 year old that is less broke, if it’s also less broken! I personally don’t think starting babies before they even hit 24 months and drilling sliding stops on a 2y.o. is worth it to have a horse that is compliant like a reining horse (not to mention the crap like “bitting up”). But then again, I have no interest in a really “dead broke” horse – I like them lively.

I still don’t understand what OP is after with reining cross-training, based on the recent replies. If OP is truly interested in dressage and has had exposure to good dressage training, why would she want to use reining to improve rein-back or ToH (reining’s equivalent movements are quite different from what we do in dressage)? Why would you seek out reining to learn how to use subtle seat (shift of weight) aids, when refined use of seat aids is the bread and butter of dressage? If you and/or your horse is still fairly inexperienced, I don’t imagine that it’s going to be easy to figure out what translates usefully across disciplines, let alone to tactfully implement it. Good luck, OP!

[GraceLikeRain]

@emipou

Why yes, as a matter of fact… And I hear she picked up reining pretty easily too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azIWYbmsiII

I don’t think that’s super helpful.

Yes, a successful pro may find it easy to switch between multiple disciplines. Asking an AA rider and green horse to switch between two disciplines without a firm grasp of either seems less advantageous.

@yohseeme I wouldn’t be inclined to teach a dressage horse how to neck rein or back up like a reiner. Without exceptional hindend control it is very easy to end up with a horse that is “light” and turns easily but you lose the ribcage and hindend to the outside or get a horse who drops behind the vertical and shuffles backwards, creating a whole host of other issues.

Establishing a very solid foundation in one discipline before looking for the benefits or additional exercises that can be gained by another is typically less confusing for both the horse and rider.

[SPF10]

My daughter owns a very well trained QH. Before we ever bought her, she was trained as a reiner (Smart Like Juice is her sire) in Ohio. We found her in MD and the people who had her didn’t know much about her history. She is registered so we looked around for records and found not only a reining record but evidence that while in training she was taken to several dressage shows at Erie College. So It is possible that professional trainers use both. My daughter used her for jumping, dressage and eventing. Daughter plays with the reining, mostly spins and stops but it would seem the horse recognizes the tack she is in and responds accordingly. Personally I think dressage, at least the basics are never a bad thing.

[alibi_18]

@pluvinel

See below.

Fast forward to 4:00…I think the cowboy rides the WB better than the “dressage” rider because he gives the horse much more freedom.

//youtu.be/rqyV9kGQpEc

I don’t see that at all, quite the opposite.

The reining guy couldn’t control much of the dressage horse’s gait because he kept pulling back. He was passaging all the time because he had no clue how to put the horse through and simply trot. He’s blocking and squeezing… and that’s why the horse broke/ran in the first lengthening.

The dressage rider was giving as much rein as he could. He’s actually riding the western horse way more sympatheticaly then it’s regular rider who puts him way behind the vertical (nose to chest/knees). The western horse was more « uphill » and nose straighter with the dressage rider.

Clearly, this is not a big deal and they were goofing around. They both had time to practice prior the show and horses used were ready for mistakes and such antics from their new riders. Just a fun event.

As for the OP.

It’s really difficult to learn and train in 1 discipline.
As much as you think you will give clear aids, there is a chance that you won’t really be able to do so reliably enough.

If I were you, I would concentrate in training your horse in 1 discipline and maybe getting lessons, on another horse, in the other discipline.

[SuzieQNutter]

I saw a pas de deux with a quarter horse and a paint. It was fantastic. We were told the quarter horse had won at western 2 weeks ago but not what type of events. It was a grand prix dressage horse. The quarter horse was dressed as a cowboy. The paint was dressed as an indian. They both started with an extended canter down the quarter and 3 quarter line and a sliding stop for the halt.

The rest of the pas de deux was virtually cowboy chase indian. It was brilliant. Like the Paint piaffing while the quarter horse circled doing one tempi changes and things like that.

For a beginner rider I would say no.

It takes years for the rider to learn how to use the reins in dressage. The art of using the reins is to learn how not to use the reins.

Carl Hester told a story about a champion jockey coming to have a lesson for something he had to do. I can’t remember what. He had done nothing but ride race horses. Of course he wanted to start with flying changes and piafffe. Carl put him on his Grand Prix horse and said canter is your usual pace. Canter large, turn at B and turn at E and he will change for you. The jockey tried to turn by pulling the inside rein. The horse just turned his head right around and kept cantering large. The jockey couldn’t believe it. In dressage we don’t use the inside rein to circle and a turn is a quarter of a circle.

[ThreeFigs]

Emipou, my question was whether a Dressage HORSE could make the transition to reining. Anky’s foray into reining does not impress me much. Her horse gaped his mouth every time she asked for a whoa. A good reiner (i believe) rides more off seat than Ms. Anky demonstrated in that video.

She was way too much in that horse’s face.