can horses get cocky?

[thecolorcoal]

very curious because i know you’re not supposed to anthropomorphize.

my little mare is getting to be SUCH a good jumper having come back from dire straights when i first bought her. she is so good, now, that she is giving me and my good friend who helps ride/train her a run for our money. ever since she’s gained muscle and weight and realized “hey, i actually am GOOD at this jumping thing!” she blows us off way more than she used to when she was first learning.

can horses get cocky when they realize they are good at their jobs and go into autopilot, thinking they know better than their riders?

[equisusan]

No. Horses can have rideability issues where they don’t listen to their riders. Horses can go into self preservation mode if they are lied to often enough. Mares can have hormonal issues that make them lose focus or get spooky.

But I don’t think your horse’s behavior change is because she’s cocky. That’s a human trait.

[Renn_aissance]

Let me introduce you to my horse Tip. Tip doesn’t think he knows better than his rider. He is absolutely certain that he does, and there’s no arguing with an Irish horse who’s had many years to hone his Irishness (and is probably quite right in his thinking, to boot.)

A horse who has learned by repetition that a way of doing things is easier or more comfortable for the horse will have a preference for doing that thing. Likewise, if you practice a certain way, the horse will remember what he has practiced and default to it. (This is part of training all animals, humans included- scaffolding the exercises so that success at the pole to crossrail gymnastic leads to success at the oxer to oxer bounce.) And sometimes, as the horse is building strength and fitness and just plain feels good in his own skin, the horse does whatever he damn well pleases for the joy of having done it. I think all youngsters go through this phase… and unlike the schoolmaster who is so good at his job that he does it best without our interference, the young ones don’t have the rights of age (or actually knowing what they’re doing) and shouldn’t get to get away with it.

Figure out level-appropriate challenges where she has to think and pay attention to be comfortable and successful. Some horses figure out grids quickly, but I like grid exercises for this because you can set them to help you accomplish your goal. Horse won’t collect? Horse will probably figure out how to collect if you set your two stride distances a couple of feet short- it will be uncomfortable to answer this question incorrectly by blowing through the aids. For the horse who is resistant- my horse’s classical presentation is “I have never in all my 21 years even considered turning my head to the left and I certainly am not about to start now on your say so”- trick him into it. Horse likes to jump and hates to flat? You can get a lot of flat work done by arranging cavaletti in figures so the horse is doing a figure eight and changing bend and suppling on the approach.

I’m willing to give an old schoolmaster plenty of passes for knowing exactly how good he is. When the schoolmaster says “You are but a monkey on my back and I am the absolute Van Gogh of this joint” the schoolmaster is probably right about this. The young horse (whether chronologically or emotionally young) gets the word “cocky” and doesn’t have that experience to back it up. Suck it up, buttercup, you ain’t nothin’ yet.

[thecolorcoal]

thank you guys! i really appreciate your answers. haha, i’d be cocky if i were her though! she’s starting to exceed even MY riding level (meaning she may be too good of a horse for me now and i am the one who trained her from day one! ) very, very proud of how far she’s come.

i’ve ridden horses who thought they knew better than me and those times i was glad i gave them the reins because they kept me safe when i had no idea what i am doing. the change is just quite sudden and has set in ever since she decided she was such a fabulous horse, she could jump OUT of the pasture (yes she jumped right over the pasture fence with minimal injury - we’ve been schooling 2’9 and that was a 4’ pasture fence).

her scope is massive, now. i had a scary fall and so i’ve been going back to little jumps to regain my confidence, and while she used to jump them with minimal effort, now she jumps them almost 2’ above what they should be - and these are tiny crossrails! the bigger jumps get her attention and she is way more willing to listen to my directions, but over the tiny jumps i am but a bug on her back.

we work on extension and collection along the long and short side of the ring, both directions. i’ve posted about this before - i’ve never BEEN with a horse since humble beginnings so this is new to me, watching her blossom into a total POWERHOUSE. today, she jumped a 5 stride line in 3 strides, her lengthening was unbelievable without even getting faster! never saw her stretch her legs so far! and she flew over the second jump (mind you these were low-low, 2’3 at the highest crossrails).

to me, this is great. i feel like i am riding a champion. and i trust her with every fiber of my being because she would never, ever hurt me. but for my leaser, who is not as confident nor as experienced, it is becoming a giant nightmare because she gets scared and starts to curl up into a fetal position, and in irritation my horse begins to crow hop like “if you’re going to be a wimp, then get off!”

i give her lessons on my horse and am pushing for her to get some lessons from on-property trainers, of course.

cocky or not, i am reluctant to change her even in the spirit of “better training” and “more obedience.” i see how this could get messy fast but this is EXACTLY where i always wanted to be, riding wise.

another note: mine is a young green one.

just gotta brag i’m sorry!!! i’ve never ridden nor had a horse THIS talented.

[specifiedcupcake]

@thecolorcoal;8934380

to me, this is great. i feel like i am riding a champion. and i trust her with every fiber of my being because she would never, ever hurt me. but for my leaser, who is not as confident nor as experienced, it is becoming a giant nightmare because she gets scared and starts to curl up into a fetal position, and in irritation my horse begins to crow hop like “if you’re going to be a wimp, then get off!”

i give her lessons on my horse and am pushing for her to get some lessons from on-property trainers, of course.

cocky or not, i am reluctant to change her even in the spirit of “better training” and “more obedience.” i see how this could get messy fast but this is EXACTLY where i always wanted to be, riding wise.

another note: mine is a young green one.

I would not lease out a young green horse to a rider that gets scared of exuberance. That’s a recipe to mess up all your nice work. Can you lease the rider a different horse, or teach the rider on another one? IMHO you’re asking to frustrate your mare (or injure the rider) by putting someone on her that can’t handle it.

[findeight]

[QUOTE=thecolorcoal;8934323]
very curious because i know you’re not supposed to anthropomorphize.

my little mare is getting to be SUCH a good jumper having come back from dire straights when i first bought her. she is so good, now, that she is giving me and my good friend who helps ride/train her a run for our money. ever since she’s gained muscle and weight and realized “hey, i actually am GOOD at this jumping thing!” she blows us off way more than she used to when she was first learning.

can horses get cocky when they realize they are good at their jobs and go into autopilot, thinking they know better than their riders?[/QUOTE]

Not really. But they can get a whole lot healthier then they were when you first got them. And a lot more obnoxious when displaying the holes in their training they previously didn’t feel well enough to take advantage of.

In other words, they were too sick to care and once they get healthy, they do care and tell you where you can go…help you along in that direction too. It’s not a good thing, you need to stop viewing it as sort of understandable, minor bad attitude episode by a rebellious teen and correct it as serious, deliberate misbehavior by an 1100 pound animal that can and will get somebody hurt.

And a 5 stride line in 3 strides is asking for a crash through or rotational fall, nothing positive about that.

[Foxglove6]

What you describe doesn’t sound cocky to me. It sounds like a horse getting away with misbehavior because the riders don’t correct it. I don’t think a 5 stride line should be jumped in 3 strides. That doesn’t sound good or safe to me at all.

Are you riding with a trainer at all? What do they think of this behavior and training methods to get the horse more rideable? I agree that it sounds like your leaser might get hurt if she continues as she is. Not a good match there. But if the behavior doesn’t change and you’re not working with someone on changing it, what happens when the horse is too much horse for you too? It sounds like you’re close to that already.

[findeight]

Is this the same OTTB mare you posted you got mid May? The one with reduced flexibility in one fetlock due to a sesamoid injury? That you can only ride weekends because you have to work? That you posted has gained 200lbs in the last 5 months and ended up at the vet clinic with a bad gas colic just last month?

Doesn’t describe a high mileage schoolmaster showing the ropes to anybody. Swapping bits won’t help either. You need to slow down and get on a regular program with a qualified trainer slowly teaching her solid basics and being aware there may be physical limitations making her want to “run and be done” in addition to not understanding what’s expected…and that’s not leaving out two strides or overjumping by 2’ due to being “cocky”. That’s more likely not understanding or a reaction to pain or rider miscues, like getting stiffed over the top or on landing.

[csaper58]

[QUOTE=equisusan;8934351]
No. Horses can have rideability issues where they don’t listen to their riders. Horses can go into self preservation mode if they are lied to often enough. Mares can have hormonal issues that make them lose focus or get spooky.

But I don’t think your horse’s behavior change is because she’s cocky. That’s a human trait.[/QUOTE]

This. I 100% agree

OP… you say you don’t want to change your mare for reasons of better training, or more obedience.

What about reasons for of safety, yours and hers.

Pride goeth before a fall.

[PNWjumper]

Yes, absolutely horses can get cocky. I’ve had a few in my life that were wickedly smart and absolutely got to the point where they thought they knew more than me (and to be honest, they probably did, lol!). I think this is one of the more intangible qualities that makes a top horse just that, a top horse. I also think it’s one of the qualities that often moves a horse into the “pro ride” category.

But I think that what people often attribute to cockiness in a day to day scenario is more likely a combination of freshness and misbehavior that’s not being addressed immediately.

And I can’t let it go without saying that I can’t for the life of me think of why you would do 3 strides in a 5 stride (unless the 5 stride was really set as a 4). I ask my horses to compress and add strides in lines frequently, and on occasion I’ll set a line at a half stride and ask them to do the one-less ride. But never, never, never on my green horses. And running through a line set that low is a recipe for disaster.

Furthermore, I agree with specifiedcupcake that a newbie type has no business on a horse like you describe. It’s not a difficult journey to take a horse from cocky -> scared. Especially a mare as I think mares tend to remember things quite well and react much more strongly to inconsistency in a rider(s).

[fordtraktor]

Yes, please don’t let your mare leave out two strides in a five-stride line. A rider was killed at a large A show this summer doing that. It is very dangerous and can easily cause a horse fall.

I agree with PNWjumper, unsurprisingly, that cocky horses can be extremely difficult and downright dangerous to a less experienced rider. A horse that takes over and ignores the rider is not desirable. I also agree that on my green horses I encourage the add. a young horse getting quick is not a sign of cockiness, it is a sign of anxiety in the horse.

Also jumping a 4’ fence in turnout is not a sign of cockiness…again, can be fear. My 23 year old kid’s pony jumped a 4’ fence last week. Pretty sure she saw a coyote as she is a western pony and has only ever jumped crossrails…she is far from talented. I have jumped her over enough stuff to be sure she isn’t a hidden gem. She was probably just spooked and decided the fence was the better option.

[findeight]

A cow can jump a 5’ fence from a near standstill and for totally inexplicable reasons other then we can be sure cockiness had nothing to do with it.

[GrayTBJumper]

I understand the love for this kind of brain because it’s what I love about my mare, too. However, there’s a fine line here.

She’s always brave, game, and smart, but every now and then, she gets especially full of herself. She finds her own distances, self-adjusts, and compensates for my adult ammy mistakes. I love that she finds the spot when I can’t see it; I love that I can jump into a combination, grab mane, and let her find her way through it on her own. It’s what a good adult ammy jumper should do.

However, I don’t ever let her think she knows better than me, even if she does. She is not allowed to tune me out. Especially when she was greener and we jumped the 2’3" stuff, I would choose the distance and strides, whether it was the chip, the gap, we jumped on a half stride, or right on (the chips and gaps were not intentional, those were adult ammy mistakes, of course lol). Jumps were small and my horse has scope, so it didn’t matter how ugly the approach. What did matter is that it was MY choice and my horse had to respect and listen to that choice.

It’s about establishing respect with your horse. She must listen to you (and other riders for that matter).

Also, I always chose the chip over the gap when my horse was green. It’s dangerous to let a green horse get on a huge stride when it doesn’t know where it’s feet are and it doesn’t have the balance yet. It’s more likely to trip and/or roll over the poles, no matter how much scope it has.

[Blumeroo]

I guess the word cocky can be used, but I would think to use the word confident instead. My mare is quick as a whip and therefore gains confidence. The same can be said for a horse that is now healthy and feeling good, such as your mare appears to be.

However, it’s easy to assume a horse that over jumps small fences and leaves strides out of a line is cocky/confident, but could also be a sign of pain, fear or holes in training. I think it would be prudent to consider all those options with your mare. She could very well be super athletic and feeling good but there could also be an underlying issue.

I agree with the other posters that your mare may no longer be a good fit for your leaser. If she is afraid, then it is doing neither her or your mare any favours. She needs a steadier horse to ride and lessons from a trainer.