Can I afford to move to San Francisco?

[alternaria]

My husband and I may have an opportunity for fantastic jobs in San Francisco. The jobs would be right downtown (do they call it downtown?). The issue is I don’t know if we can even afford to consider it. We are lucky as I’d predict together we’d be making around $350K, maybe closer to $400K, which is substantially more than we make now. (just as an aside these would be good, secure jobs and that salary is based on the conservative end of what folks in our fields make. Part of the reason we are moving is because we are getting screwed at our current place.)

But I have four horses and two donkeys. Now we don’t have too much other debt, maybe a thousand bucks a month mostly for my student loan payments. And no kids (ever, I’m 45). I ride only one horse, the other three and the donkeys are retired and some subset of them could go to retirement board, but I don’t know where or what to budget for that and am reluctant to have them out of my direct supervision. But one donkey and horse I’d really prefer to keep at home to keep a good eye on since they are older and a bit more special needs. I’d also probably want to board the one horse I ride to have some sort of facility. I am an old re-rider and pretend to do eventing but nothing above BN (well, maybe someday novice!!!). And I also have two old goats and a couple hens and one rooster. While I could get homes for them I would trust to provide the excellent care they currently get, that’s a pretty unattractive option to me and I’d much, much, much prefer they come with us.

Our current situation is we have maybe $300K equity in our current home (which is giving it a conservative value of $500K, likely would go for closer to $600K). And we’d have an additional ~$200K cash to put down on a property. So let’s say MAX $500K down, maybe should assume $400K to be safe. We moved here right at the housing bubble and lost a lot when we sold our last house. That alone is enough to scare me about considering this.

Can I even consider it? We are currently in the midwest and have 20 acres! How much do horse people spend on little “farms” in this area? What kind of mortgages do folks in this area carry? I’ve been looking at homes up to 1.5M which scares the bejesus out of me and I’m not even sure I could have the menagerie at any of those. While we don’t have a lot of debt we are used to living a comfortable life and doing what we want with regards to eating out, vacations, stuff. We can certainly curtail that to a degree but I don’t want to be house poor.

I know I will have a longer commute. We used to live on the east coast so I’m okay with that and would love to be able to use BART rather than drive.

And separately, how does running an animal property work in the Bay area? Now, with my 20 acres I just rotate and rake the pastures a couple times a year to get rid of the poop. The manure pile from stalls and stuff composts and gets spread on the hay field once a year. And where do people store their hay and stuff - I put ~450 bales in my barn once a year!

Help! This job would be so, so great that I would love!! to be able to consider it.

I’d love any suggestions or insights on my myriad of questions!

Thank you! Help me get my dream job and get OUT of the midwest! Not that it’s not great, but gee whiz I miss the coasts!

[Anne_FS]

I have a family member considering the move as well, and a friend who made the move almost two years ago. In order to break even as in standard of living, their salaries had to increase by a minimum of 50% from their old job, which they did, but because of the increased COL that 50% raise meant it was actually a “same pay” move.

Of course now they live in the Bay area, which they adore, and friend’s office has a beautiful view of the Bay Bridge.

None of these people has a farm or any pets other than cats, though.

Congratulations on the good job offers! Good luck!

[alternaria]

Thanks, Anne.
That is helpful. The tough thing is I won’t know the salary until I’ve invested some real time into this. Part of the trouble with that is that will include letting some colleagues know I’m considering this. If it’s all a pipe dream I’d rather not initiate it. The salary increase is likely to be less than 50% but not by a lot. And it could be 50%. I guess that suggests it’s not wholly unreasonable, as we really could cut our lifestyle quite a bit without much pain and just a little effort. (gee, maybe I won’t volunteer to cover the costs of the semi-pro at my barn.)

[Appsolute]

Sigh… so many people are moving here for very well paying jobs, and its really changing the place I grew up in and LOVE. Life here is getting harder and harder every day…the bay area didn’t used to be such a god damned rat race…end of that rant.

So, obviously my perception is colored by that. Currently the California Bay Area is the most expensive place to live in the country. The cost of living is high here. Gas prices are the highest in the nation, food prices are some of the highest in the nation, rents and real estate are the very highest in the nation, and consider that you will lose at least an additional 10% of your income to CA income tax.

Hay is around $22 a bale for 100 pounds of grass hay
Shavings are $6.50 a bale

As for pasture / manure disposal. It doesn’t rain for at least 6 months of the year here. Pastures won’t keep (dead) grass over the summer unless you have MANY acres (like 10 per horse). Most horse paddocks and “pastures” get turned into dry lots over the summer. Mud pits in early winter, and then grass will grow mid winter to spring.

Most horse properties I know of have large dumpsters, and have the manure hauled away. Some pile, compost, and spread on fields (if they have large acreage).

I can’t imagine you will be able to find property that includes horse facilities, a house, an hour away from SF that would be less than several million.

Most people around here either bought their horse properties decades ago, or board their horses. Unless you can spend around few million, you will be spending a large amount of time commuting, or can have some tiny paddocks on a small lot (with no arena etc).

Where have you been looking at properties? You mentioned Bart - Walnut creek area could be a possibility

{edited to add}

As for hay storage, most buy in small quantities and often (which of course means you are paying more per bale - but due to the cost of land etc, most do not have the facilities to store large amounts. All must be purchased, no one grows their own hay in the bay area.

[Paks]

Horse keeping in the SF bay area is very different than in the Midwest or East coast. Land is at a premium so turn out is basically non existent. At least not what you would call turn out. 1/4 acre is considered adequate for a hobby farm. I’ve seen horses turned out for exercise in a 12x24 pen (the size of my foaling stall). If you want real turn out you are going to be out of BART’s reach.

[Hinderella]

My sister lived in that area for quite a while (Santa Rosa). Real estate is extraordinarily expense, and commuting times are long. Are you wedded to owning property? You might be better off boarding your animals some distance outside the city and renting closer to your job. That way, instead of paying a huge amount of money for a property requiring time and maintenance and facing a LONG daily commute you would live in a little/no maintenance situation and have a long commute only when you choose to ride.
Just a thought.

[ladyrider]

Well, it depends. Financially yes, you could afford it, it would just depend on what sacrifices you are willing to make in your lifestyle (smaller house? Longer commute? Boarding creatures instead of have them at home? Rent instead of buy?) As a rule, the further away you get from the city and public transit, the less you’re going to pay for land and boarding. But then you need to be prepared to have a HORRIFIC commute. I am in the bay area (Marin), so I cannot really answer questions for other parts of the bay, but if you have questions about Marin, feel free to ask!

[littlemess]

Honestly the Bay Area is not a place “where you can have it all”. Which is why my husband I left almost 3 years ago. We actually looked into moving back a year ago but things had gotten even more expensive and unrealistic.

Like it’s been said already 1 acre is considered a lot of land. You could possibly find a 3-5 acre parcel in Sonoma County (Forestville, Petaluma, or maybe even Sonoma). Something like that could be around $750k and that’s for a fixer upper. From that area you are looking at 1.5h-2h commute each way. I couldn’t imagine having the time or will to perform barn chores before or after that. Another thing to consider when commuting is paying for a monthly parking pass in the city. On top of that factor in the most expensive gas prices in the country, and paying a fee to enter SF daily.

The only way I would really see it being plausible is to rent or buy close to SF and board. Plus how do you feel about living in a high paced city, and all that comes with it?

[littleum]

Having just moved to the Bay Area… agree with the statement unless you’re willing to spend several million you will not be horse keeping within 1 hour of San Fran.

Your trade off here is going to be how long of a commute you’re willing to tolerate. If you’re willing to be the warrior who does the 2 hour commute you have some options. If you want under 1 hour, you will pay an absolute premium price because everyone else wants that too.

[oliverreed]

Please don’t think I am being snide but I was prepared to give OP a one word answer - No. And I haven’t lived there for a number of years.

[poltroon]

Since OP is talking about an annual income north of $350k she certainly can afford San Francisco if she wishes to. That is a very high household income even for this area.

Your best bet would probably be retirement board for your retirees. There are many excellent options for that in Sonoma County and probably some to the south as well. Sonoma is also a great place to visit, and if you travel during not-commute hours, maybe an hour from the city.

That leaves you with your riding horse boarded at a place that is easier to access. I would arrange it so your home is near the horse, then plan to drive to BART and take that into the city.

North bay is a great place to live with horses, but it is the one corner of the Bay Area that BART doesn’t reach. However, there are horses tucked all around the open space areas of the Bay Area.

There are many benefits to living here, which is why people pay more to do so. 1.5 M isn’t, alas, an outrageous house, but you can get in for far far less, depending on where you’re willing to be and what you need. That amount of income is quite adequate to live a very nice life here.

[poltroon]

The rules on chickens are going to vary city to city within the Bay Area. You won’t be able to keep a rooster in most urban areas, but for example the city of San Francisco will allow you to keep four hens. The goats may be a little trickier but again, if you have a place with a yard, it may be more doable than you’d expect.

[Appsolute]

And regarding all of those saying “rent!”.

In SF proper be prepared to spend $5,000 a month for a flat. 340 sq ft studios are going for $2,500+ a month. Three bedroom houses in the better neighborhoods are renting for $9,000+ a month.

Parking in my building is $450 a month (I work in the FiDi). My caltrain / muni fees are $390 a month (but hey, at least I don’t have to sit in traffic - but I do lose 3-4 hours a day commuting).

Its the price I pay - as down in San Jose I am able to rent a tiny old, not renovated house for a measly $2,500 a month (cheap for the bay area!) and board my horse at a reasonable cost (but practically no turn out).

[KateKat]

For horse friendly areas…SF area would definitely not be my first choice. Its been awhile but places like Half Moon Bay and Pacifica used to have a lot of horse-y properties. Woodside/Los Altos/Palo Alto has also been historically horse-y, but those multi million properties now.

However, in terms of affordability on the salary you think you would be making, yes you could make it out here. But it would be a considerably different way of living. Smaller, older houses (or newer, but very densely packed houses), no land and there are just SO MANY PEOPLE in the BA now. I grew up on the Peninsula and my parents still live there and every time I go back I am just so danged grateful I don’t live there anymore. Don’t get me wrong there are reasons why everyone wants to live there, but IMO its not worth it.

[alternaria]

Thanks all for the input!

Appsolute, I promise I’m really not a bad person and hope I wouldn’t be responsible for the ruination of your home. :no: I’m just at the very start of this process but trying to figure out if it’s even worth considering. Walnut Creek was an area that seemed more “doable” with taking BART into the city. Certainly we would not plan to live in SF proper unless we decided to undergo a complete lifestyle change, but thanks for the input on rental prices there.

Paks, I agree my horses would prefer more turnout. Goats and chickens would be okay though, so maybe if I boarded the retirees out where they could be on pasture, like Hinderella suggests. Dunno.

Thanks ladyrider, I guess I’m trying to exactly quantify the extent of those sacrifices. Tough to know how much it would be worth for the job, no matter how perfect.

Littlemess, that’s helpful. I sure don’t want a 2 hour commute each way! Takes the point out of living in a nice place if you can’t appreciate it. Although I’ve lived in the midwest for a few years now I’m actually born and raised on the east coast and lived in my young adult years in the center of a major city (no horses then!) so I’m quite familiar with and okay with the lifestyle. Locking my doors again would be a change and I’d have to be careful not to leave the keys in the car!

Littleum and Oliverreed, thanks for your input.
I guess most of you say we can’t do it, and I really appreciate you letting me know that upfront.

Poltroon, thanks for your suggestion. I’ve been trying to look and find those couple pockets where we could get away with it. We aren’t fancy folks so a modest house is not a big deal.

KateKat, I agree. We’d always joked we’d never live in California. However, we are both very career focused and the specifics of this position are really incomparable, which is why we are even asking the question. For example, my husband was approached about a position in NYC and he declined to even apply because while it was attractive it just wasn’t going to be fantastic enough for us to even think about.

Thanks all! i really appreciate the input and will continue to ponder.

As an example, when I see a place like this I think it looks okay:

http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/26-Camino-Ct_Lafayette_CA_94549_M19922-37152?row=20

and this one, which is pending but seems that it would have worked:
http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/110-Estates-Dr_Orinda_CA_94563_M19885-16000?row=36

Can any of you comment on the areas where these couple places are?

I appreciate all the input!

[fatprincesspony]

I just moved to this area, so I’m certainly not as knowledgeable as the rest. However, my family of four lives off of way less than your projected 350k. I only have one horse, but I think my two children sort of off set that lol. I’d say you can totally move here on 350k+. Depending on how far you are willing to live, you can certainly get pasture space for your horse. If you choose walnut creek, you can get space by boarding in Livermore. It’ll be a good 30 minute drive, but certainly doable. It’s all about what you’re willing to do in order to have what you want.

As for Lafayette and orinda those are really great areas to live in. At least in my opinion.

[Appsolute]

Lafayette and Orinda would be a good areas to consider. Its within reasonable distance to SF (around an hour) and you could take BART much of the way.

The particular properties you linked to - while they do have some acreage, most of it is STEEP terrain (notice the decks and terraces), not suitable for horse keeping. Keep in mind we lots of HILLS out here, and many times if a property has acreage, and is on the lower price end - its because much of the acreage is not usable (oh, but you will still be paying property tax in it!).

And I don’t hate you! I am sure you and your husband are nice people. Its just that the “tech / bio boom” has been VERY hard on “natives” who do not work in those industries. Rents in some areas have gone up 2 and 3 fold - and everything has become more and more crowded. My evening commute home on Caltrain looks like something out of a foreign land (packed like sardines, standing room only for an hour plus - simply too many people). It was NOT like this just a few years ago.

[monstrpony]

I lived in Orinda a LONG time ago (when I was a teen; I’m an olde pharte now), and we kept two horses on just under an acre, with a small barn, small arena and turnout which included the arena space. I’d never dream of trying to live in an area that expensive now, but it is what it is.

It IS possible to keep horses on those kinds of properties (provided it is allowed, of course) but it’s very, very different horse keeping that what we do in the east. There is no pasture, it’s dry lot (emphasis on the “dry” much of the year). I would imagine that now, the possibilities for riding off of your property may be quite limited.

I can’t quite tell where in Orinda that property is; we were south of the freeway, about half way to Moraga. I have no idea what the possibilities are for getting feed, hay, bedding there now. I’d imagine just expensive as all get-out. Fed a lot of oat hay, a little alfalfa. No grazing–which can mean feeding issues if you work in the city and commute; you’d need to have a friendly neighbor or some kind of care-taker if you need to keep hay in front of yours all the time–but many horses got along just fine with twice a day feeding and just loafing the rest of the time. You can do fine with just run-in instead of stalls (I’m assuming you are a relatively casual rider/owner, or would be for the animals you might keep at home). A lot of your manure will just dry up so that it is not officious, at least during the summer, but probably neighbors will want or require you to have it hauled off. I have no idea of limitations for other livestock.

This kind of horse-keeping is very different, but it is very do-able. IF you can afford it.

(ETA–what App says about the steepness of some of the property is very true. I’m now in the mts in western NC, so I don’t think about it being an issue, but steep land that is bare can be a beotch in the winter)

[jenm]

Other places to consider are Livermore, Benecia, Clayton and Martinez. Bay Area traffic is horrific (every freeway is a parking lot during commute hours) and each year I become less and less of a Bay Area fan. It seems like every time I turn around, new high density housing is being built.

Taking BART to the city is not a bad option and while I don’t know what your professions are, you may be able to work out some sort of work at home a couple of days a week deal.

To give you an idea of horse properties in the above mentioned areas:

http://www.robinsranches.com/PropertyListings.htm

[littleum]

Yes, the hills around her are pretty impressive!

The Walnut Creek commute is just as bad as all the others… You’re looking at about a 40 minute BART ride (not including your time getting to and from the BART station), or 60-90 minutes in the morning driving in (not including parking and costs) If you want your commute to be under an hour I just don’t see it happening.

I guess it depends on how much time you’re willing to spend commuting. :\

BTW: I hate it here. It is NOT worth coming here unless you have no alternatives or are getting a very serious upgrade.