Can quarter/american Paint horses dressage?

[Magicpride]

Hi everyone
i am based in the UK but thought I’d write on here as no one in my country knows about quarter horses and paint horses!

I recently got into the quarter horses in 2014 after owning an amazing quarter horse stallion who was perfect in every way he was so different to the fiery and temperamental warmbloods I have had, he’d only ever done western prior to me getting him but he seemed to find the dressage easy (he was 17 ill add) but I sadly lost him last year due to years or irreapairable neglect to his hooves from his last owner.

I am a quarter horse convert after him with two quarter horse x warmblood foals by him which are looking promising, and now also own a 5yo american paint horse whom I brought and plan to do serious dressage on, we’ve been through alot and he is quirky, but we have a very close bond, at times he shows promising, and I know his really trying his little heart out for me, but other times I feel hopeless he seems to really struggle getting the impulsion going mainly in trot.

Every time I ask him forwards he keeps skipping and trying to canter but only on the front end and it makes him look like his dog lame, I’ve had people pull me up on this at my yard saying his really lame, but his definately not! Ive had vets out and even given him months off work and nothings wrong at all, he proves that even more by running and bucking in the paddock full pelt with my youngster! his not in pain or lame he just find cantering and collecting up easier he’d canter all day!

As soon as i ask him to trot forwards he is unable to do this unless its in a long and low outline and im talking chin touching the floor and me at the end of the buckle outline!
he really trys to pull me down, I never ride short anyway and am a very soft rider with my hands but his excessivly bad for wanting to go along with his head touching the floor, near on constant, I dont mind letting them stretch but not for the whole ride, for dressage in this country id get marked pretty badly for him going round like this, but if I try to ride him the normal length I would usually which isnt short by any means as like I said I ride quite long he just keeps skipping and looks god damn awful! And if I go any shorter then forget about it his even worse!

Ive researched that quarter horses/paint horses are bred downhill but I wouldnt of said his downhill, his chunky but he looks in proportion, his parents were american imports but he was bred in the uk, and his bred from reining lines by the looks of it with heza blue tomcat on one side.

I can provide photos if needs be for you all to take a look at

I have a warmblood mare whom i bred myself who finds the dressage so easy and is very talented but she doesnt have the brain for it, loses the plot at shows, and now a paint horse that has the perfect brain and trusts me so much but seems to struggle with trotting for dressage im in a catch 22 situation here

Do you think its his breed and his struggling because of his confirmation? Or his age?

I only school him twice a week, with a lesson on saturdays and i hack him (take him for trail rides) as often as I can because of his age I dont like to do to much schooling with him but on the days I try to school it just feels horrible

I wondered if anyone out there wherever you are in the world does dressage with their quarter horses or have tried and failed or can maybe give me some ideas, Ive had such a bad run of horses in the past and after losing my stallion I find the right one and it doesnt seem like his going to be able to do what I want to do im just feeling so disheartened at the moment

[hoopoe]

yes they can do dressage. i took my AQHA to Medium level and we had a mare in our region showing GP and finishing top 20 in the country a few times.

Both of these horses were what we would call ranch type, not beefy overpumped halter types.

I will say, many QHs suffer from bad hocks and bad feet.

saddle fit can also be a nightmare with a poor girth pocket/ groove ( place for the girth), and with shoulders which hit back into the drop of the flap. An slightly cut back / less forward flap is helpful

it does not sound like your horse is ready for collection and really, dressage is for most horses so it does not take any extra knowledge for a dressage trainer to train and coach you appropriately.

I suspect you are going to need to put in a lot of schooling rides over the next year go get him strong enough to develop the strength to carry. If he was started with a "western " career in mind, the peanut rolling style is prized in America so they may have started him with trying to imitate that form ( :concern: ) He is going to have to learn to work into your hands, be sure you are not yielding away

[RedHorses]

Depends on the horse. Many of them can, but will not ever be capable of the lofty trots that most warmblood breeds have. The more muscley built horses will also have trouble with the lengthening work.

A lot of Quarterhorses have a lot of TB in them and are quite athletic animals. Your stallion may have been one of these (note that a QHxTB is often referred to as an Appendix because they are registered in the appendix book, but an Appendix QH can move into the main book through earning performance points and will subsequently appear as full QH on any offspring’s papers). QHs from Halter lines tend to be far less athletic.

My QH was a Running bred (racing) with one visible TB on his papers, and others further back on some other lines. We did dressage at Training level, and he probably could have managed First level reasonably well had it not been for an old injury. We had to work slowly, a few steps at a time to develop the lengthened gaits. It is very easy to rush a QH past his comfortable stride and fall into rushing rather than lengthening.

My TBxQH (not Appendix as he is unregistered) is very athletic and quite comfortable with Second level everything, working higher in some things. He easily scores higher than my QH. But he does not and never will have the WB wow gaits. We have also evented and done Hunters (North American).

QHs tend to be steadier and more consistently rhythmical in their gaits, and they tend to find collecting work easier but generally do not get much loftier in the trot. They are often easier to get steady in the bridle. They will tend to be more consistent through the test movements.

Going from QH and cross to WB was quite an interesting experience. The high marks were higher, the lows lower. A QH needs to work much harder at the lower levels than a WB does to get the same mark. Watching and riding my young WB showed me why (lazy WB gaits still appear better than working QH gaits).

[exploding_pony]

Some can, some can’t. What you are describing sounds like a very downhill, western pleasure type horse. That is going to be very, very hard to convert to a dressage horse.

I have a QH that was bred to do reined cow - he looks like a Swedish warmblood. Still a bit croup high and the trot can be a challenge, but he is competing second level this year. I have no doubt he will be able to do third level if I can get him a bit more forward and off the forehand.

But my QH is not an easy going type QH, he was actually a handful as a young horse. He has turned into a great horse but he is definitely a bit quirky.

There are a few QHs that I know if that have gotten to FEI - one competing in So. CA and Kelo is doing it on her horse in Texas. Tracey Lert took a QH/Swed cross to GP, but she is very, very good.

They are few and far between because the trot is an issue. Mine will never trot like my warmbloods, but he has some other wonderful traits that make him a super AA horse.

[BigMama1]

Every horse can do low level dressage - just start with the basics. However today’s “pleasure”’ QH is a far cry from the well-rounded athletes they used to be. If yours has been trained to go in that weird,!broken, nose lower than the knees way, it will take a lot of patience and correct training to develop forward energy and shift the balance back to the hind end. If your horse’s confirmation is like that it will be even harder but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t do it! They are wonderful, versatile animals, usually will fantastic brains and temperaments

[StormyDay]

Any horse can get to 3rd/4th level.
I have a APHA who does very well. We usually get 8s on our trot. However, he has a lot of TB in him and most people can’t place what breed he is. He doesn’t look like a stock horse.

At 5 years old, your horse can and probably should be in full work. APHA and AQHAs tend to mature early, so he is probably all done growing. It sounds like someone taught him to keep his head down like that, and as soon as you start working him more he will stop that. As i said, any horse can get to 3rd level. With non-warmbloods, sometimes you have to get creative (Most can’t do a true extended trot, but can do a good collected. So to compensate, you do a very collected trot, a slightly more collected that usual medium trot, and a kind-of extended extended trot.)
Get creative, and remember that these things won’t come as easily for him as it will for your warmblood.

[AZ_TD]

You should post a picture and video if possible. If he was started like some of these western pleasure quarter horses, you have a challenge ahead of you.
http://thehorseaholic.com/western-pleasure-video-from-quarter-horse-congress-has-the-internet-outraged/#

[bauhaus]

[QUOTE=StormyDay;8722060]
Any horse can get to 3rd/4th level.
I have a APHA who does very well. We usually get 8s on our trot. However, he has a lot of TB in him and most people can’t place what breed he is. He doesn’t look like a stock horse.

At 5 years old, your horse can and probably should be in full work. APHA and AQHAs tend to mature early, so he is probably all done growing. It sounds like someone taught him to keep his head down like that, and as soon as you start working him more he will stop that. As i said, any horse can get to 3rd level. With non-warmbloods, sometimes you have to get creative (Most can’t do a true extended trot, but can do a good collected. So to compensate, you do a very collected trot, a slightly more collected that usual medium trot, and a kind-of extended extended trot.)
Get creative, and remember that these things won’t come as easily for him as it will for your warmblood.[/QUOTE]

I second this. You have to show a difference to be correct and you have to accept that you’re just not going to get a big WB floaty trot. (Although you might, I’ve experienced a couple of sudden breakthroughs where average movers have WOW trots if you do everything just right, and they suddenly realize they can).

Without seeing his conformation it’s impossible to say what you’ve got to work with, but my gut feeling is that you’re comparing him to fancier movers which give you a very different feel and getting frustrated. He may need to be twice as fit to carry himself due to his conformation and it may take twice as long for him to learn because it doesn’t come naturally, but that doesn’t mean he can never do it. My only advice is to try not to worry much about how it feels right now when you’re doing arena work and just keep asking for the right thing. Also if possible do as much hillwork as you can and lots of transitions up & down, to help build muscle behind.

Edit: just re-read what you said about the skipping, I somehow missed that crucial piece of info. On this side of the pond it’s known as rein lame (is that a term you use as well?) which they do when they don’t want contact. I still think he might just not be in shape enough and this is his evasion, if there’s no physical problem. Try to work on his fitness and I still say keep asking for the right thing. If he wants to skip at the trot rather than stopping or letting him go long & low keep the contact and make him work anyway (maybe let the contact be a little longer than you’d normally ask for, just don’t let him take it and stretch all the way out; it’s ok for his topline to be a little flat). Then do spiral ins & outs on a circle, leg yields and lots and lots of transitions.

[Alex_and_Bodie_s_Mom]

[QUOTE=Magicpride;8721951]
Hi everyone

but other times I feel hopeless he seems to really struggle getting the impulsion going mainly in trot.

Every time I ask him forwards he keeps skipping and trying to canter but only on the front end and it makes him look like his dog lame, I’ve had people pull me up on this at my yard saying his really lame, but his definately not! Ive had vets out and even given him months off work and nothings wrong at all, he proves that even more by running and bucking in the paddock full pelt with my youngster! his not in pain or lame he just find cantering and collecting up easier he’d canter all day!

As soon as i ask him to trot forwards he is unable to do this unless its in a long and low outline and im talking chin touching the floor and me at the end of the buckle outline!he really trys to pull me down, I never ride short anyway and am a very soft rider with my hands but his excessivly bad for wanting to go along with his head touching the floor, near on constant, I dont mind letting them stretch but not for the whole ride, for dressage in this country id get marked pretty badly for him going round like this, but if I try to ride him the normal length I would usually which isnt short by any means as like I said I ride quite long he just keeps skipping and looks god damn awful! And if I go any shorter then forget about it his even worse!

([/QUOTE]

Couple of thoughts here:

1.) He’s never learned to accept contact with the bit properly, and is dodging it.
2.) He hasn’t got the strength to do what you’re asking him to do.
3.) Saddle fit or other pain issues.
4.) He isn’t engaged in the hindquarters - you’re riding front to back, rather than back to front.

I’ve ridden horses like this, and a friend had a lovely Paint gelding who was built slightly downhill, and whenever he started to get tired, or was just fed up, this was his ‘go-to’ trick. I rode a TB who did this because he’d been abused in the mouth and was trying to evade contact. Of course Paints and Quarter Horses can do dressage, but if they’re built downhill, it’s harder for them to master the balance issues and get off the forehand. It just means you have to be more patient and correct in your riding and training.

I’m unsure exactly what it is you’re asking him to do at the trot when he does this, though - are you asking for more collection/impulsion, or a lengthening, or just ‘please pick your feet up and act alive?’ If he’s not fit enough to do what you’re asking, he might be trying to evade. Do you ride with an instructor? If not, you should at least try to get other knowledgeable eyes on the ground, as well as some video.

If this was my horse, what I would try is to lunge him on a 20m circle with side reins at least 15-20 minutes per day - leave them somewhat loose, so he can find his balance and learn to carry himself and develop the muscles to do so.

[toady123]

It can be done. I ride a bum high appendix QH and we school 2nd and 3rd level stuff for fun (don’t bother showing). We have done clinics with top coaches and they generally think he’s adorable. It’s not easy for him, but he’s a hard worker.

The ease of doing it will depend on the build, ability and the willingness of the horse, and the skill of the rider. It takes time - especially if they are not naturally built for higher level work. Fitness is also very important, as is consistency in riding him correctly to ensure that the proper musculature is developed and maintained.

Without seeing the horse it’s hard to say what the issue is. I would say you need someone with a strong dressage background (and ideally some experience working with ‘non-standard’ dressage breeds) who can see what’s going on.

[Pipkin]

What sort of level do you want to ride to? Can he lift through the shoulders even with his head on the floor? If he can you don’t need to worry. It may be a longer road but you will get there. He is only five so I wouldn’t panic yet. He will mature in the next year or so, and you will be looking at a very different picture.

I would advise against side reins, or restricting his neck in any way, as this will further stunt his trot. Pole work on the lunge will be a godsend. You can do raised poles in both walk and trot, and grids in canter. Hill work too will help.

I have a very downhill tb and I promise the conditioning really works. Make a regime, stick to it for a year, and see where you are then.

[MysticOakRanch]

I have two friends who ride QHs in dressage - both have selected this breed for its great brain. ANother person I know has taken a Paint to FEI levels, again, loving the brain. They aren’t big, scopey movers, but they tend to be very trainable.

I don’t know the background of your horse, but it sounds like he was trained for Western Pleasure - so the first thing he needs is retraining - which can take a while. I had a Morgan a few years ago who was WP trained - and he struggled with the concept of “going forward in trot” too. They are trained that there is jog, and nothing faster. Once he got the idea that working trot was fun, everything got quite easy with him.

So explore ways to encourage your horse to enjoy a forward, energetic trot - that might include ground poles, trail rides at a brisker jog/trot, in-hand/lunge work, etc. My guy reacted really well to leg yield - it helped open up his shoulders, and once we did that for a while, I introduced ground poles, spaced further and further apart.

My guess - once he “gets it”, it will be easier. You may never get the big lofty trot, but even with Warmbloods, you often don’t get that. Take your time, encourage him gently, and try all kinds of different things to see what encourages him to open up his trot!

[Dee-Vee]

Suggest that you find a knowledgeable dressage trainer to assess your horse. As with any breed, success in dressage is about conformation, fitness and training. You can put loftier gaits on a QH through fitness and training…will they ever move like Valegro…probably not, but how many horses in real life do??

Choose an athletic individual that is built to do the job you want. QHs are a very versatile breed…not all are bred for the WP ring…thank heavens…we have reiners, ropers, racers…athletes with powerful hind ends and slope to their shoulders.

I know a number of QHs that do quite well in dressage. Some kick warm blood butt in the ring. The key lies in finding the right dynamics between horse, rider and trainer.

Good luck.

[Dee-Vee]

I just looked at your horse’s bloodlines. He has Leo top and bottom, and Bert on the bottom. QHs of these bloodlines tend to adapt well to dressage. I am not so familiar with the Paint bloodlines. The stallion you referenced has more Paint than QH in his bloodlines.

Bloodlines of course are only predictors.