Can someone give me the rundown on a foundered horse and shoes...story within...

[One_Two_Three]

We acquired a horse with lovely training, he’s sound, he’s a sweet boy. However his feet are a mess. We had him for about 45 days, and then he was taken back (it was a consignment) for another 30ish days and now is signed over and ours. He foundered sometime in the last 6 years (that’s all I know) and the previous owner was convinced that he needed front shoes forever since the founder. However, his feet are in extremely bad shape. His left shoe got torn off along with a large portion of his toe and wall. I’m not convinced the horse needs shoes. They are NOT corrective by any means. They are simple steel shoes with clips. No correction, nothing special.

Can someone explain to me why a traditional shoe with clips would be a necessity for a foundered horse? I understand him being ouchy and sore, and maybe the old owner thinking he needed shoes to stay sound. But strictly speaking from a laminitic standpoint, if the shoes are not corrective, why else would he possibly need them? Thin soles? We’re trying to come up with the best course of action to rebuild this horse’s foot health so that we can get him into a loving forever home. His feet remind me of elf slippers. The farrier is due out hopefully in the next few days…but in the mean time myself and the barn owner would like to arm ourselves with as much knowledge as we can going into the visit. The farrier mentioned gluing shoes on since he has almost no healthy foot to nail to. I come from the camp of wanting to pull all shoes and let the feet heal but if there’s a reason not to, of course that would take premise.

I’ve advised the barn owner that he needs this food remedied immediately (or as quickly as we can switch him over) because it’s awfully high in sugar. Evaluating what the best hay we have will be for him, likely something with not a whole lot to it.

as if my post doesn’t give it away, I’ve been lucky enough to not deal with laminitis or founder in my time, personally. There could be a very obvious answer that I’m missing.

[Marla_100]

You have a PM.

[One_Two_Three]

Has not come through yet, but will keep checking

[Highflyer]

Not a farrier, but… it definitely hasn’t been my experience that they automatically need shoes. Often if they have foundered severely they do need to be on a shorter more aggressive trim cycle, because the toe grows out very quickly. The feet may never look completely normal. He may or may not be okay without shoes while his feet grow out. Sometimes even a horse with no other issues can be pretty miserable if the ground is hard or it’s missing a big chunk of hoof. Boots may or may not be enough to help.

Do you know why he foundered? Not all laminitis/ founder is caused by metabolic issues.

[One_Two_Three]

[QUOTE=Highflyer;8327878]
Not a farrier, but… it definitely hasn’t been my experience that they automatically need shoes. Often if they have foundered severely they do need to be on a shorter more aggressive trim cycle, because the toe grows out very quickly. The feet may never look completely normal. He may or may not be okay without shoes while his feet grow out. Sometimes even a horse with no other issues can be pretty miserable if the ground is hard or it’s missing a big chunk of hoof. Boots may or may not be enough to help.

Do you know why he foundered? Not all laminitis/ founder is caused by metabolic issues.[/QUOTE]

We have no further information on why it happened. I can only suspect that it was a diet issue, because the food he came to us on is oats, corn, molasses in the first 5 ingredients. (yes, even after he foundered…) But don’t know for sure. I know his history in training, has second level dressage training, schooled prelim on the event course…but he’s 14 now, and was marketed when we consigned him, as a solid 2’9 horse. Maybe something with the concussion of eventing? An infection? Dunno, Not really sure. I recommended that the BO shoot some xrays so we really know what’s going on in there, and will likely get a better idea of what course of action to take. She doesn’t want to pour a ton of money into him, because ultimately we’re trying to place him with a forever home, but we really want to set him up for long-term success health wise; so xrays and feet and diet seem like a good start.

[merrygoround]

So much depends on what is going on inside his foot, and sole depth which can vary from horse to horse.

Let your veterinarian and farrier be your guide.

[Marla_100]

You may want to suggest BO test him for PPID/Cushings as age wise he’s where often times laminitis/founder is the first symptom before any of the other outward symptoms, ie long coat, failure to shed, excessive thirst, etc.

My vet charges $125. for ACTH and Insulin test.

Also mention to BO that full 24/7 turnout is best for consistent movement/exercise for these guys and to help repair compromised circulation.

[2miniB]

My mare foundered, in part because her toes were left too long and none of the farriers I used knew how to fix it. Getting her hooves back in proper balance was really important to getting her sound again. She was barefoot or in boots with pads when she wasn’t comfortable barefoot.

I know every horse is different, but I think getting the hooves in proper balance is key to helping a horse recover from founder.

[One_Two_Three]

[QUOTE=merrygoround;8328069]
So much depends on what is going on inside his foot, and sole depth which can vary from horse to horse.

Let your veterinarian and farrier be your guide.[/QUOTE]

Working on that—BO is trying to get a hold of the farrier today, who works hand in hand with our vet. Just waiting on a call back.

[QUOTE=Marla 100;8328071]You may want to suggest BO test him for PPID/Cushings as age wise he’s where often times laminitis/founder is the first symptom before any of the other outward symptoms, ie long coat, failure to shed, excessive thirst, etc.

My vet charges $125. for ACTH and Insulin test.

Also mention to BO that full 24/7 turnout is best for consistent movement/exercise for these guys and to help repair compromised circulation.[/QUOTE]

I mentioned to her that 24/7 turnout would be great for him. This actually works in our favor because there’s only 1 open stall and we acquired three horses this week. I’ll mention getting the blood pulled, too. It just blows my mind that the horse has been on the type of food he is on, with known issues. It’s Seminole Excelerace which seems like the last thing I’d want a horse like him on, especially because he’s hot by nature under saddle as it is. He’s transitioning to Perform Safe (low sugar low starch) as we speak.

I just can’t help but think that his feet haven’t been properly managed for quite some time. We got one other horse from the same place who has low and high ringbone and requires a very specific trim, or corrective shoes. He came back with a huge flare on the side where the ringbone is the worst. Clearly the farrier they use didn’t know how to follow simple instructions given by another farrier, and follow the Xrays the horse went with. Needless to say, they’re both in our care now and we’re working to get them fixed back up.

What a crazy first half of the week!

[findeight]

Will your BO that, I guess, now owns the horse spring for some x rays to see what is really going on inside the hooves? If you have rotation or not? You cannot tell by looking.

IME “Corrective shoeing” has always been more about the trim then what got tacked on afterword. Looking at the shoe is not always going to tell you what was done to that hoof. With no x Rays, you are pretty much working blind depending on assumptions and guesses to make decisions.

If she’ll pay for x rays and blood work, you’ll be way ahead of the situation and may save money because you’ll know what and how to treat.

[fordtraktor]

Do you have pictures of the feet? A foundered horse should not be having elf feet if it is well managed.

My foundered horse cannot go barefoot any longer, he needs shoes and pads to be comfortable (but no wedges, my farrier does all the management based on his trim and not the actual shoe itself which is just a plain shoe with no clips). He has an under 5 degree rotation in one foot and no rotation in the other, but navicular changes in that foot. It is imperative that he is kept with very little toe and he cannot go past a six week trim cycle.

My farrier has done a really nice job managing it and we tried him barefoot but just couldn’t keep him comfortable. It is what it is. Get that horse on better feed and a hoof supplement too, his feet shouldn’t be that bad because of founder that is not active.

You need a very good farrier, in short! Also be really careful with grass, it goes without saying. Mine needs to be out 24/7 in a dry lot though it is hard to say whether that is the laminitis damage or his navicular/ringbone/sidebone. The dude jumped around the 4’6 for a over a decade, and has the Xrays to show for it, bless him. His Very Important Job now is just to oversee operations.

[One_Two_Three]

No photos, but I will get tonight! His feet are disgusting messes, by my standard! Seedy and just…awful.

I was under the assumption that a proper trim was more important than the shoes…which this horse has not gotten, either. It’s scary. I’ll get photos tonight.

I mentioned to BO last night about getting some xrays. I dont know if the old owner has (or is willing to part with) xrays from when this all occurred. She didn’t care for this particular horse (if you didn’t notice) so my doubts are high on that. If I had to guess BO would be more than willing to get some xrays on this guy. Will help with rehoming, as well, to have something to show people when discussing his issues.

He’s coming down from the 12 pound of Excelerace slowly but surely starting today. First off, he doesn’t require 12 pounds. Second, he’s hot. He doesn’t require this type of food, at all. Thirdly, WHY would this be a good option for a case like his, ever?! AGHHH! I lose more and more respect for his previous owner (who is an established “horsewoman”) every time I think of this situation. Just because she didn’t “like” the horse…seriously.

I’ll get photos on here tonight or tomorrow morning. You’ll see the elf slippers and the lack of right front hoof I’m talkin about…Poor baby.

[nu2u]

errrr:confused: ummmm

[fordtraktor]

Just stop the high sugar grain. he doesn’t need to taper off of it. Every day he is on it is risky. 12 pounds of that is totally insane. You can gradually introduce the new one. Just keep hay in front of him all the time and he’ll be OK weight wise.

[One_Two_Three]

[QUOTE=fordtraktor;8328387]
Just stop the high sugar grain. he doesn’t need to taper off of it. Every day he is on it is risky. 12 pounds of that is totally insane. You can gradually introduce the new one. Just keep hay in front of him all the time and he’ll be OK weight wise.[/QUOTE]

Totally know his weight will be okay–he’s an easy keeper by nature which is why I just can’t even fathom why he was on what he was on, let alone the amount. He didn’t want to finish his dinner last night, which is why the BO was hesitant to do a cold switch to the new food. I think he was just stressed and depressed. I’ll be sure to mention to BO that he can probably handle a switch from sugar to nutrition pretty easily.

Will report back with foot pictures as soon as I get some! Poor guy is dealing with a case of rain rot as well. Something he didn’t have a month ago but is now covered in Poor guy was totally just blown off. He’s too sensitive for that.

[Hampton_Bay]

My elderly mare foundered almost a year ago. She was misdiagnosed as having EPM by the “best vet in the area”, so her treatment didn’t begin until sometime in November when we finally got a correct diagnosis. By then she was down most of the time, but when we would think she had enough and make arrangements to let her go, she would jump up and resume eating and moving around. That happened 3 or 4 times.

By the spring she was trotting mostly sound. It did take one cycle of cast on shoes (she couldn’t stand nails, or even stand on three legs, so I did all work while she was down). Past that one month, she was up and down too much to keep the on, but she seemed more comfortable. She’s now 100% sound, canters occasionally when the mood strikes (she will be 25 in the spring). Her hooves look completely normal, actually better hoof form than prior to the founder.

So the description of elf shoes just strikes me as poor hoof care. Likely the heels weren’t trimmed down, and as they grew the toes got long, and now the whole mess has gotten completely out of hand as the heels have become crushed and run under. For months I really didn’t even trim my mare’s toes at all, just her heels every week or two. It sounds like that was not done.

[Clair2014]

I definitely agree with the other posters in that you really need to find out why the horse foundered in the first place. It seems like checking for PPID and IR should be very high on your priority list. I also agree that you can just stop the high-sugar feed and gradually add something else, as needed. With regard to his hooves, some foundered horses can go barefoot and some can’t. Taking x-rays would be very helpful in the decision-making process beacuse you would know exactly what you’re dealing with. I have one horse that is only sound in heart-bar shoes but I know many that can be managed barefoot. I would recommend listening to the horse and doing what needs to be done to make him comfortable. There is no one-size-fits-all answer here. Good luck!

[One_Two_Three]

Okay well I failed on getting pictures, as by the time I pulled him out of his stall for turnout, it was dark. However the farrier did come yesterday to fix him up. He said it looks like he’s been without a shoe on that foot probably for the entire 30 ish days he has been gone, by looks of his feet and the amount of rust on the pulled shoe.

He trimmed the really bad foot back fairly short and put new shoes on. He said he thought leaving shoes on would be a good idea for at least one cycle. His back shoes were pulled and he is sound on those.

The horse has someone looking at him tomorrow, hopefully they hit it off and he goes home with her. She rehabs ottbs so I know he would get perfect care with her. Otherwise I’ll be back here with photos. The farrier said if he doesn’t find his new home this weekend, we can discuss pulling all shoes.

He also is going to attempt 24/7 turnout starting tonight. For the first time in the four days he has been back, last night he galloped off in his paddock. He was much quieter. So much happier. He craves work and craves attention and finally felt better.

Here’s to hoping we can get him into a home. Otherwise, I’ll be back with more of our journey!