In the last few days there has been a good bit of discussion on certain fashionable bloodlines that look good on paper but are known to pass on unsoundness. As an OTTB enthusiast I am always interested in these things, so what bloodlines are known to pass on durability and soundness?
Bumping this up because it’s the other half of the equation that can help correct the direction breeding has been going.
Other than the Fair Play line, I’m not sure but I’d like to find out more.
I’d also like to know, since a lot of emphasis has been placed on the mare lines recently, Blue Hens, Reine-de-course, (sp?) and so on, what tail female lines produce questionable legs?
I’m not a bloodlines expert at all. The only ones I can think of that were known for being sound are old bloodlines…Caro and Big Spruce and Nodouble. Maybe Buckpasser and Broad Brush?
I hope some more knowledgeable people will chime in, because I’m interested in learning more about this. I know of several current lines that AREN’T known for soundness, but none that are.
Is that the same Caro who is the damsire of Unbridled’s Song? You know the sire of Eight Belles and the one that is being lambasted for throwing unsoundness? You know the Unbridled’s Song that also traces back to that great French stalwarth, Wild Risk through Le Fabeleaux, who’s names are trotted out in every discussion of TB lines for sporthorses as paragons of toughness and who also traces to those other known cornerstones of soundess and ironhorse-ed-ness, Olympia and Pricequillo… and lo and behold, Buckpasser.
Or maybe Eight Belles took a bad step?
Nah… couldn’t be that simple. It’s all Mr P’s fault.
[QUOTE=Drvmb1ggl3;3195189]
Is that the same Caro who is the damsire of Unbridled’s Song? You know the sire of Eight Belles and the one that is being lambasted for throwing unsoundness? You know the Unbridled’s Song that also traces back to that great French stalwarth, Wild Risk through Le Fabeleaux, who’s names are trotted out in every discussion of TB lines for sporthorses as paragons of toughness and who also traces to those other known cornerstones of soundess and ironhorse-ed-ness, Olympia and Pricequillo… and lo and behold, Buckpasser.
Or maybe Eight Belles took a bad step?
Nah… couldn’t be that simple. It’s all Mr P’s fault.[/QUOTE]
Interesting about Mr. P… my gelding has Mr.P and Tri Jet as grandsires (relatively unknowns for parents) and he has never had an unsoundness that was not caused by an outside influence. He is 16 now, and has 20 starts under his belt, 5 years in the jumper ring, 3 years as an event horse and now he is straight dressage.
Another supersound one in my life is a gelding named Mister Matthew (Silver Buck x September Dancer by Danzig Connection), 6 years on the track, now 12 and jumping. I don’t think that horse knows the meaning of the word “ouch”.
Was Nashua known for soundness? I have a 31-year-old (yes, 31!) Nashua grand-daughter who did eventing, “A” hunters, etc. for years and is sounder than many others half her age.
For what it’s worth, some of the hardiest horses I have known had Verbatim close up.
Although he’s usually off the catalog pages anymore, so I would consider it pretty irrelevant.
I know nothing about this stuff but I have a grandson of Seattle Slew and I have spoken with other Slewbaby owners and they seem pretty sturdy. Mine raced for 5 years and is sound and clean legged. He has substantial bone but he also has a huge set of shoulders so I would think his legs have taken a pounding. He also has pretty good feet for a thbd and only wears front shoes. He also has RAN which I have read on here is not good. Any thoughts?
Here is his pedigree:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/mr+hobo+joe
My thinking is that the bigger boned horses must have some advantage??
Disclaimer: I am purely a fan of racing. My breeding endeavors lie in other disciplines. I freely admit that I do not know as much about racing as some on this forum.
My personal opinion from general breeding is that if I wanted to breed an exceptionally sound horse, I would look hardest not several generations way back in the pedigree at influences probably quite diluted at this stage but at the immediate ancestors, especially the sire and dam. If they had problems with soundness and durability, I would not use them for breeding, because I think they themselves will be the most immediate influence on my foal’s conformation, athleticism, and durability. I’d take a quick look at the grandparents, too, but the sire and dam, to me, would be nonnegotiable in terms of soundness and use for breeding. I might miss a lot of money that way, were I in horse racing as a breeder instead of as a fan, but I just don’t see why “but he earned a lot of money” should trump principles that are applied by many (not all) in other sport horse fields of breeding. I would never send my mares to a stallion with bad feet or legs, not saying that those could never sire a sound horse, just that I think there is a greater likelihood of problems.
Unbridled’s Song, whatever his own distant ancestry, is an individual who had repeated soundness problems in his own career on the track. I think he’s one of the most gorgeous studs I’ve ever seen, but I would not breed to him. Not even free. If I had acquired a mare by him somehow and considered breeding her for whatever reason, I would first assess her own ruggedness very carefully, probably deciding against breeding her if that had flaws, and second would run for the soundest and most proven durable stud I could find, not for another brilliant but with soundness problems stud. Especially given the demands of racing, more strenuous than other equestrian endeavors.
Nor would I breed to Big Brown.
Seattle Slew, yes. Nashua. Princequillo. Right now, Hard Spun. Something that has shown personal durability, that faced testing and held up well to it.
If you’re willing to concede that Barbaro took a misstep, you might consider Dynaformer. Lots of durable g1 winners, 30 starts of his own. No Native Dancer.
I see a lot of nice horses with Hail to Reason up pretty close.
madeline
I too was going to suggest Dynaformer (after researching this very subject).
I think it all depends on the cross and how potent the sire and/or dams are. One or the other will prevail in the foal.
All of the successful Roberto sons are fairly pre-potent and throw sound offspring.
As to the example of crosses that went bad, take a look at Shenanigans. When bred to the Bold Ruler line, her get were fragile. But when bred to anyone else, they were comparatively tough with large numbers of starts.
There are such things as anti-nicks. Bold Ruler to Buckpasser as been identified as one.
I like Dynaformer too- even before Barbaro made him a household name! He has a son “McDynamo” who has done exceedingly well in the tough sport of steeplechasing.
For the sport horse market, Dynaformer is out of the question with that stud fee. But what about one of his sons such as this stallion standing in PA? (I have my eye on this guy for when I eventually breed my own ISH mare…). I’d appreciate the input of some of the more knowledgeable folks on here. 
I don’t know TB lines, but my mare seems to be of good stock with clean legs no shoes. http://www.pedigreequery.com/saturday+nite+lady
I’m hoping some of the TB people chime in, I would love to find more about her pedigree
Private Terms, Tim Tam
My new guy is by Private Terms, ran 61 times, came out clean legged, now in training to event.
My 22 year old (17 hands solid) was Tim Tam and Alydar, raced 9 times ( 6 times at 2), evented the rest of his life, now he hacks out, and other than some arthritis, still in pretty darn good shape
If you look at the pedigree of Eight Belles, there are 4 lines to Native Dancer. Three are from Raise a Native (retired at 3 unsoundness); 2 lines to Mr. P (speed kills! many Mr. Ps become unsound).
Unbridled Song, had soundness problems as previously stated
From my own point of view, I believe that too many Nearco line horses in a pedigree is what is causing all these problems. TBs need to bring back those Machem lines…quote from TB heritage:
"In all, Matchem sired 354 winners, and his hallmark was excellent temperament and durability, the “truth and daylight” so desirable in breeding. "
It is just my opinion that heavy line breeding to horses known for unsoundness is not helping the horse or the sport.
I can recall in the late 50’s, Round Table running nearly ever week…where are those sound horses now?
This is my 22yo chestnut mare’s pedigree http://www.pedigreequery.com/dreamology . She is virtually indestructible, legwise and healthwise. I’m not sure how many times she ran. Survived Bastard Strangles and has never taken a lame step. I should have bred her. 
A lovely, lovely mover as well. Sigh.
I had a Slew grandbaby, loved him dearly but unsoundest horse I’ve ever owned.
[QUOTE=seeuatx;3195401]
Interesting about Mr. P… my gelding has Mr.P and Tri Jet as grandsires (relatively unknowns for parents) and he has never had an unsoundness that was not caused by an outside influence. He is 16 now, and has 20 starts under his belt, 5 years in the jumper ring, 3 years as an event horse and now he is straight dressage.
Another supersound one in my life is a gelding named Mister Matthew (Silver Buck x September Dancer by Danzig Connection), 6 years on the track, now 12 and jumping. I don’t think that horse knows the meaning of the word “ouch”.[/QUOTE]
I have a Mr. P grandson who has Danzig Connection on his Dam’s side - maybe the two will even each other out???
http://www.pedigreequery.com/nicholas+nicholas
He’s 10, so time will tell - but he was off for some time last fall when he blew an abscess(sp?) out the side of his hoof
The idealism is all fine and lovely, but the winner of the Kentucky Derby, Breeders Cup etc is the first horse past the post, not the soundest.
A stallion that throws chronic unsoundness will not have much of a future at stud. A stallion that throws some unsoundness, but enough winners of checks will. A stallion that throws horses that never take a lame step, but can’t outrun their shadow, will have his genes die out soon enough, at least in the racing end of things.
Btw, for all this criticism of Raise a Native, the leading jump race sire (has progeny earnings up around the $25-30m mark in just jump races alone) was Be My Native. As you can tell from his name what sireline he comes from. He sired loads of horses that raced until 12 or 13 of age.
I posted this before, but it bears repeating… Whirlaway is often cited as one of the great Ironhorses of yesteryear in American racing. He made 60 starts, won 32 times, finished in the money and amazing 56 times. He won the Triple Crown, won the Travers (which is in effect the Quadruple Crown, the only horse ever to do so) and just about every other great race of the day.
His grandsire was the phenom, Blandford, an increbible sire. Balndford had horrible conformation and was almost not raced. He bowed in both legs in his 2nd race. He was sent to stud, because he was well bred and sired, lo and behold, 4 Derby winners. Probably the most famous was Blenheim. A couple of weeks after his Derby win at Epsom, Blenheim broke down in training. So he didn’t even make it half way through his 3yo year. He was then packed off to stud. So that’s 2 generations of “unsound” sires.
At stud in France Blenheim sired a Derby winner himself, Mahmoud and the great stayer, Donatello, plus he gave the world the blue hen mare, Mumtaz Begum (dam of Nasrullah).
He was then purchased by Bull Hancock and brought to Kentucky, where he sired none other than… the great Whirlaway. He also sired the likes of Rosebeam and Saratoga and several others who made over 100 starts each, including the great Steeplechaser, Adaptable, who ran over 100 times also. Add to that Jet Pilot, a tough campaigner who won the Kentucky Derby.
This all from a sire and grandsire who couldn’t stay sound after a couple of runs on nice soft English grass.
So be careful about deciding who is fit to stand at stud and who isn’t.
[QUOTE=sporthorsefilly;3199948]
TBs need to bring back those Machem lines…quote from TB heritage:
?[/QUOTE]
I am very happy with my Betrando (Matchem) son as a saddle horse.
