Can we talk about brakes and braking?

I never really learned how to use my brakes in my marathon carriage.

Normally I used them only for “extreme” moments, a short steep downhill, or when my horse is attempting to ignore my request and rudely barges through my hands. I don’t for a moment think I can stop my horse with my brakes, brakes stop the carriage, not the horse, I just weigh him down with drag when he decides to get rude.

What I have noticed though is that since going to the heavier 4 wheeler from the teeny tiny light jog cart, our down transitions pretty much suck. He rocked in the jog cart, crisp down transitions (up was another story back then :lol:) square every time. Now, he sort of crumples and is rather strung out.

Thinking its just strength and balance, I’ve been timing my down transitions so we’re on good footing and often slightly uphill so he can stop effectively and build muscle memory of a good stop. I don’t know how to fix the poor down transitions so I just minimize them. :lol: Try not to practice mistakes is my motto.

Anyhow, reading one of my books, I think it was Heike’s, I read something to the effect of “if you have brakes use them in your down transitions every time, why make your horse do all the work when you can help and get a better down transition”.

Ah, lightbulb! So for the last few weeks I’ve been using my brakes for down transitions, and at first it was great. Immediately better, more organized down transitions. Thought I was on the road to recovery.

But then very quickly a new problem arose. Crafty pony apparently likes the ‘help’ so much, he waits for me to apply brake before making the attempt to down shift. :rolleyes: So now we have the same problem in reverse, still strung out, no power or squareness, but being drug from front to back.

Looking for information on half halts (for such a hugely important tool there is not a lot of discussion on it :(), I found this article and the part about not using brakes for the exercise really resonated with me

http://www.coachmansdelight.com/CGuidePage.asp?pg=GUI21&k=21

I strongly discourage the use of brakes during this exercise for several reasons.

First, your horse should be able to stop the carriage without any trouble on any flat, or moderately down hill surface. If he is slipping at all from the weight of the carriage, check that he is shod correctly for the surface he is working on. I use a thin layer or “wash” of medium grit borrium or Drill Tech on all horses for driving. This is plenty to keep them from slipping, even in hazards, but not so much that it effects the weight or give of the shoe. 
Second, making the horse responsible for stopping the weight of the carriage has the added benefit of demanding a higher level engagement. A horse has to lean into the breeching to slow and stop a carriage, the way he would use his hind quarters to carry himself down a steep hill, or perform movements of greater collection. 
Third, and certainly not the least reason I discourage the use of brakes is operator error. The most frequent mistake I see made in this regard is the driver using the carriage to stop the horse. This happens when the driver brakes the carriage before the horse has made, or often even begun to make the halt. The traces tighten, and the horse stops from the weight in the breast collar. There are several pitfalls in this scenario. From the prospective of dressage and engagement, the horse is learning to use his front end, and the breast collar to stop. This sends the balance of his weight forward, over his front legs leaving him “on the forehand”. Horses that halt on the forehand often are heavy in the reins (especially if the brake isn’t applied). They halt over many many strides, do not halt square, and move off from the halt crooked, with their head in the air. From a more practical standpoint, using the brake to stop a horse trains him not to pull the carriage when it gets heavy. The next time you are at a rainy CDE listen to how many people complain “my horse wouldn’t go forward because dressage ring was too deep.” Often times those are the very same people who use the brake to slow or stop their horse. It’s only natural for the horse to back off if they encounter heavy going with the carriage. The horse has no way of understanding if the carriage is harder to pull because of mud, or because the driver is riding the brake.  

So, now I question to what degree I should be using my brakes, if at all in normal circumstances. When he started his little trick, I realized my timing was off, so tried to wait for him to make the attempt to stop before I helped… but he’s clever and stubborn and literally waits for me to help, he goes hollow and kind of skitters along waiting for me. Rotten lazy pony.

Working on HH’s will go a long way to solve this, we obviously have much work to do, and in the end we will figure out what amount of braking and when, etc, works best for us. There is no hard and fast I’m sure.

But I would love is to hear anyone else’s advice, or really just your philosophy on brakes and braking.

As with a lot of things, there are many roads to Rome on this. What I really value about CoTH the most is that its a central meeting point for so many great horsemen from completely different backgrounds, with completely different POV. I get a lot of lightbulb moments reading what everyone has to say.

Thank you!

I had brakes on my mini cart. What i was taught in my lessons with him is that i ONLY use my brakes before a turn or down a hill. Not for downward transitions. I can see how your scenario would so quickly happen, the weight on the BC is the cue to halt and waiting until it happens to do so, etc…

Brakes before a quick turn takes the weight off the horse so they can turn easier/quicker, timing to let off the brakes is a little tricky so you dont slow them down as they push back into the BC.

I would say for your issue, focus on your dressage work. Think about “riding” your horse into your halts. Half halts get frustrating because it’s such a timing issue, and since we arent on their backs to “feel” when that timing shoudl happen, i find them harder to do properly/at the right time when i’m on the carriage without staring at their feet… lol

I wonder if anyone incorporates a tap on the break with a half halt? Or would this get a sudden strung out moment? My thoughts would be to take the weight off for a second before i actually halt, to allow the horse to round up and then the weight would apply for them to tuck their butt down into a nice transition?

My mini had lovely transitions, and i never really got to practice to this level of perfection with my cob before she broke herself. So i’m just driving this through in my head at the moment… lol Random thoughts.

But really, i would focus again on driving your horse into the halt as you would riding dressage. Maybe you are anticipating the halt and making it happen over many more strides than necessary and in the process the horse is falling apart slowly over those strides? I see this a lot with riders who anticipate well ahead of the letter, or think they need to half halt the horse for several strides as a “hello, it’s coming in 30’, now 25’, now 10’, oops, it was supposed to happen 5’ ago” kind of thing. Rather than just the stride or two before the actual transition.

Maybe it would help to do some long lining work every other day between driving days to reassure the downward transition cues still work without the weight on the BC, keeping him round and fluid in them, and hope it translates when you go back to the carriage?

I cant wait to hear others thoughts. My cob mare is now sound and vet approved to ride the next 3 months as we get her fit, after that, she’s got to stay with my Sprint (lighter) for a couple months (which doesnt have a brake) and then i can move her on to the heavier Kuhnle which does. So i have a while before i get back to brakes to experiment… But the good news is i’ll be getting back to them at least this year!

You might want to “service” your vehicle’s brakes this spring, as part of your check-over before going full tilt this summer.

With fixing all our brakes on various vehicles last year, we learned quite a bit about brake systems. Firstly, is that they are usually adapted from older cars, and not really a “sealed” system. Brake fluid pulls moisture from the air, which is fine for cars. Car brakes get hot enough to burn out the moisture from fluid, when you use the brakes. A carriage is NEVER going to get the brakes, fluid, that hot. So your fluid PROBABLY needs changing, if you live anyplace but the desert.

You can tell brake fluid has moisture by the color. If fluid is not clear, it has moisture. Looks like coffee with cream? Has LOTS of moisture. This fluid with moisture will corrode, the rubber gaskets, the inside of the braking system, if not replaced.

You will need to drain off that fluid from the whole system, replace with old fashioned brake fluid. Again, it is corrosive, don’t get any of the fluid on paint or other vehicle parts. Dispose of properly.

You will most likely need the old type brake fluid, glycol, because the brake system is from an older car. Gaskets, washers are made to work with that kind of fluid. Our car mechanic explained this fluid difference to us, along with the color showing moisture.

Modern silicon brake fluids will EAT those old gaskets and washers, not compatible at all. So then your brakes won’t work at all until you replace things.

When brake fluid is replaced, you will need some help in getting the brake system “bled” of air, air bubbles. You need all air and bubbles out of the system, so brakes don’t fail you when needed.

We have found that while brakes “appear” to be working, they often are uneven in stopping, not doing much to help you, even as a drag. They require regular attention, along with yearly attention to greasing the wheels, 5th wheel/turn tables on 4 wheelers, Kingpin, checking all bolts and singletree bolt for wear. Other places that need to be looked at are the spring clips, axle clips, U-bolt fasteners holding the axles to the body on carts and buggies, bolts holding shafts to vehicles. If replaced, use hardened bolts, not the hardware store stuff which is soft.

This yearly vehicle check SHOULD be done for your own safety, on each vehicle you use. Things wear out, come loose, change, and need to be attended to so there isn’t an accident. Vehicles may be metal, but that doesn’t prevent them wearing the parts out. And all those parts listed above? I have personally found wear, worn out, ready-to-break parts on our vehicles. We have broken some of those parts in severe driving situations. No fun walking home, or having to stop driving at a planned activity. Who would THINK a Kingpin would snap? It is over an inch thick! Wasn’t even worn halfway thru. Now we carry a spare. A checklist is very helpful, so you don’t miss any parts of your vehicle in going over things.

And lastly, maybe some lessons from a Driving Trainer. S/he can see what you are doing, that lets the animal get strung out instead of sitting to hold his load to transition down, or halt. You may be giving other cues along with trying to stop him, not taking him up enough in a timely fashion, that gets this happening. He should be stopping the vehicle without the use of brakes, and having no issue with the weight. Brakes are helpful for certain uses, as were mentioned. Maybe a breeching adjustment, so he touches it sooner? For showing, we usually have snug breeching if we use it, for a crisper stop, tight turns, letting horse have better vehicle control. Horse only wears it that way a SHORT time. That snug fit in daily use, would probably rub a hole in them.

Good to know about the brake maintenance. My brake lines were empty and no fluid in the containers when i bought my Kuhnle last year and then when we repainted it, we cleaned everything. However, i’m not sure what kind of brake fluid my husband put in it, so that’s a question to ask. I hope it’s not the synthetic kind that’s eating stuff up!

You guys are great! Thank you!

I never would have thought to tap the brakes around a quick tight turn to redistribute weight, brilliant, thank you!

I’m now starting to develop the “soft eyes” where I can watch where I’m going and watch my horse too. I’m starting to look for when the breeching might be tight against him or not for indicator. My Pacific Dartmoor is VERY forgiving going down short steep slopes, somehow it doesn’t slam into the horse, but eases itself very nicely. I’ve been spreading compost on the paddocks by hand these past few weeks, and my wheelbarrow has been far more brutal on me.

I really am a fan of “riding” a down transition so the horse maintains balance, I never quite could figure out how to manage that driving though. I don’t have a restraining hand in down transitions, I actually envision the horse lengthening into the slower gait, longer “frame” (sorry bad word), so I try to “allow” the horse down a notch if that makes sense. My horse isn’t touchy enough forward off my voice/whip though to collect him down if that makes sense. This will come in time I suspect.

I will say, working on the HH exercise did cure a lot of the problems we were having. I’ve apparently been a bit too “nice” and in my allowing hand, I’ve been allowing him to dinker down. A bit more “hello?! this is the request to STOP” and meaning it really helped. After a few times he was sitting better and really putting some effort into getting us stopped… which immediately improved how he carried himself. It appears I haven’t been particular enough with my request.

THANK YOU for the detailed help with brake maintenance!

Since venturing out on more advanced trails this year, I have done up my breeching more snug, not enough to rub but quite snug all the same. So much so, now that I think of it, I wonder if its the reason he’s suddenly been a bit goosey at canter. Hmmmm.

What I do wonder is if I have my breeching adjusted to the correct height. I have mine just under the point of buttock. On my horse, thats the widest part of his muscle mass, so it made sense. I see a lot of people adjust them miles lower however. I would hate to scoot his hind legs out from under him, but I wonder if I should try a hole lower?

Finally, I think its time to consider shoes for him. I like barefoot, but I think he needs more traction.

Than k you!!!

The downward transition/give with the hand… You may be giving a little too soon, thus allowing him to string out into that hand, vs keeping him moving into it in his downward transitions.

I have a bad habit riding wise of doing a lot of trot and canter work and then when we go down to walk, i let them thread the reins out till i’m on the buckle… This screws up my downward walk transitions as i’ve let all the forward out of the transition. I have to think about how important that walk is too, to maintain impuslion even in a downward transition. Now if you are going into a free walk, hey, it’s sorta lovely… lol. Only sorta cause they should still keep their shoulders up in a free walk and not just melt out their nose… lol. But if you ever choose to maintain a good walk, they still need to remain collected and moving forward into the bit.

Not that you have that issue with just the walk, but that’s mine! lol So work those half halts, work him with a tap of the whip while maintaining contact in your downward transitions. A give of the hand AFTER the collected transition is his reward, but i’ve been taught riding wise (not that i’m good about following this avice… lol) is to hold that half halt in my outside rein in a downward transition, this doesnt mean that you cant follow the nose some, but that may be his way of evading collection in his downwards and he knows you’ll give him that inch or two allowance to do so.

The trickiest part is getting it all to translate when you are missing the bigger part of your “half halt cue” by not being able to sit on your horse… So i think getting him a little more sensitive with the whip is gonna be key to keeping him moving FORWARD into the downward transition. I doubt it will be pretty for a while, and might give you a bit of whiplash a time or two…

Keep us posted. I’m driving vicariously through you… lol

^^ Yep you put it together. I’m giving too much too soon I bet with my hand, and he is not yet hot off my voice/whip. We’ve come quite a long way in that department and I’m realizing I’ve gotten complacent.

THANK YOU!!

Did you lower the breeching down a hole like you were thinking about? I wondered if that helped any?

Haven’t done it yet, poor boy had a bad reaction to his spring shots (as he does every year, tried spacing them out this year, still bad reaction, but now I know which is worse), so he’s getting the week off.

I am going to try to lower the breeching one hole though, I’m very curious to see what happens. I have it adjusted so its square in the middle of his muscle mass, below point of buttock of course, but not nearly as low as I see a lot of horses adjusted. He’s never been great about using his back end, and he’s sickle hocked and cow hocked, so I figured he could brace best if the breeching was in the middle of his most powerful and broad area, but I’m rethinking that a bit and will be curious to see what happens.

Also meeting with a farrier tomorrow to discuss shoes.

[QUOTE=butlerfamilyzoo;6287727]
Did you lower the breeching down a hole like you were thinking about? I wondered if that helped any?[/QUOTE]

So Saturday was our first day back to driving, and I remembered to let the breeching down a hole. And… yes! Better stopping power, pony could put his arse into it a bit more. Working on HH has been a huge help too, he remembered our last lesson very well.

The canter part of our school had a lot of crowhopping though :frowning: and at one point he became really agitated and kept breaking to trot… which is super strange as this horse has discovered he LOVES to canter (and his canter is lovely & slow, he’s not rushed or running).

I originally thought the breeching might be slapping him. I did notice while hitching up that the hold backs were looser than normal with the breeching lower. But I adjust my holdbacks pretty tight to begin with, I didn’t want to take the chance and cause him yet another rub. I think I’ll adjust them tighter today for our drive.

Also keeping an eye on my kicking strap now, noticed yesterday during canter it was bearing down into his rump quite a bit, yet a perfect length for w/t, and absolutely ideal to keep him from being able to do more than a crow hop. :smiley:

Thank you so much for your help!