Can We Talk About the Abuse of SafeSport?

[TheMoo]

Once again, the statistics are extremely low for false reporting. Please keep in mind too, that the accused have always had rights, and the victims not so much.

I truly do not understand people spending this much time criticizing something designed to help victims on the off chance a false accusation is made.

Seeing as how people still ride and train with PV I highly doubt lives will be ruined over a false accusation in the horse industry.

[Didi]

Please understand I am not trying to criticize. I am just asking questions and am interested in other people’s opinions. It is not a perfect system. Perhaps some discussion and taking a hard look at the “system” could make it even more effective. Also, would love to see the statistics you are referring to as I have not seen them.

[TheMoo]

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/1996/96sec2.pdf

and an abstract: https://web.archive.org/web/20180101…llegations.pdf

Here’s the issue, abusive coaches, sexual assault, rape and other issues are rampant in the horse industry. The problem is no one speaking up and calling people out because they do not want to be black balled or whatever. So SafeSport is in place. No one is calling it perfect, but to actively or passively want to get rid of it because of the slim chance of a false accusation is ridiculous.

You know of a vindictive trainer. What are YOU doing about it other than giving a vague description on COTH? Are you going to call this person out? Bring it to SafeSports attention if you have evidence or just ignore it like many people in the industry?

This is what happens when g-you can’t police g-your sport.

[newtoriding]

I really like what @Scribbler said about behavior, and how to navigate the inevitable teen crushes. If male trainers are afraid of false accusations, I would suggest shifting the perspective from “how am I at risk” to “how can I be part of the solution so the kids I care about are protected.” I’d put this forth too: a good trainer with a track record of ethical behavior would have numerous character witnesses who would undoubtedly come forward to debunk a false claim.

[comeoutandplay]

@Didi

Here is another situation, but more of a hypothetical. I know a couple where he was a trainer. He, an adult, began dating, and sleeping with, a 17 year old client. They later married and have been married for over 40 years. This is a true couple. Now - what if they were divorcing (not true) and she decided to “do him in” by reporting the SafeSport? Technically, he is in violation and his career would be ruined. Don’t get me wrong, I am not eroding any point or another, just things that have been on my mind. Interested in what others are thinking.

This guy is still guilty of sleeping with a minor, and he’s not someone I’d want teaching teenage girls. It sounds like if you have real knowledge of this you’re actually obligated to report it yourself if you’re a USEF member

[Scribbler]

@Didi

Here is another situation, but more of a hypothetical. I know a couple where he was a trainer. He, an adult, began dating, and sleeping with, a 17 year old client. They later married and have been married for over 40 years. This is a true couple. Now - what if they were divorcing (not true) and she decided to “do him in” by reporting the SafeSport? Technically, he is in violation and his career would be ruined. Don’t get me wrong, I am not eroding any point or another, just things that have been on my mind. Interested in what others are thinking.

There is an investigation process. It’s not like every claim anyone makes is acted on. Besides if he was so much older than her for this to be a creepy situation, he’s 70 or 80 now, right?

Question: if they were divorcing and she went to the police to file a claim of sexual interference with a minor over her age when they first hooked up back in 1978, do you think that he would be arrested and charged?

[shmon]

Why do people constantly trot out “innocent until proven guilty” as a criticism? SafeSport isn’t a court of law.

[Tackpud]

@shmon

Why do people constantly trot out “innocent until proven guilty” as a criticism? SafeSport isn’t a court of law.

No it is not and that’s what makes it scary. There is no innocent until proven guilty once a name hits the interim suspension list - there is only damage.

I’m all for protecting our kids - I’m a teacher and am all about keeping them safe and mentally healthy, but not at the risk of damaging another person’s life and livelihood should the accusations prove false. Then again, horsepeople seem to have short memories and don’t always believe what is clearly in front of them anyways.

[shmon]

I’d argue that similar reputation damage exists once someone has been accused of a crime, even before a trial

While I do understand your point (and don’t disagree with it), I would personally rather trust the investigation process and suspension that would happen once the findings have proven credible, especially with the knowledge that the number of false reports are exceedingly low.

We’re so concerned about protecting innocent people. The victims are innocent too, and far more prevalent.

[NCRider]

@shmon

We’re so concerned about protecting innocent people. The victims are innocent too, and far more prevalent.

I would argue that many of the people whose “innocence” is spawning these “OMG safe sport is dangerous for mah innocent friends” posts are likely not so innocent but in fact engaging in an all out war against the program out of self interest and disregard for the rules. Wouldn’t be the first time in many cases.

[Keep_it_Simple]

@Tackpud

No it is not and that’s what makes it scary. There is no innocent until proven guilty once a name hits the interim suspension list - there is only damage.

I’m all for protecting our kids - I’m a teacher and am all about keeping them safe and mentally healthy, but not at the risk of damaging another person’s life and livelihood should the accusations prove false. Then again, horsepeople seem to have short memories and don’t always believe what is clearly in front of them anyways.

Innocent until proven guilty does not really happen in “real life”. People are arrested, often just after a preliminary investigation. They are charged and often sit in jail awaiting trial. Not until a trial both sides get to present evidence. Depending on the type of case, it could be “beyond reasonable doubt” or a preponderance of the evidence". And, a trial may take years. Safe Sport offers arbitration where you get to defend yourself.

Teachers, police officers and others can be Suspended, pending an investigation. Are there cases when a person is accused of something and they are found to be innocent, yes.; but, I think there are many, many incidences where someone reports an assault and nothing is done. Just look at the number of gymnasts reported before someone finally listened to the victim instead of protecting the perpetrator. Look at Sandusky; people knew, (including Paterno), but chose winning football games over protecting children.

I agree with Moo. Abusive coaches, sexual assault, (especially of minors), rape and other issues are rampant in the horse industry, and it has been for decades. Instead of protecting those perpetrators because they are your “friends”, maybe stand up for what is right. What if that minor was your daughter, sister, niece, grandchild (son, brother or nephew)? What would you say to them - Gee, sorry, I knew about it, but decided to look the other way? I am sure they would find that very comforting.

[DarkBayUnicorn]

@shmon

I’d argue that similar reputation damage exists once someone has been accused of a crime, even before a trial.

Just Google Jian Ghomeshi for a recent, VERY public (north of the border) example.

Anyone with a high profile who is accused is going to get a lot of publicity. SafeSport or no SafeSport.

Same goes for anyone with a high profile who makes an accusation. Google Kaillie Humphries for another current (north of the border) example. NOTE: We don’t have a SafeSport equivalent here yet

You guys ever heard of Brett Kavanaugh and Christine Blasey Ford? Whose life is more “ruined” in that example?

[Keep_it_Simple]

I am sad to say it doesn’t surprise me the number of “well-known” trainers that are jumping on the bandwagon to blame SafeSport for the suicide death of John Coughlin. Yes, he committed suicide the day after he was suspended, but how they can come to the conclusion that his suspension is what caused his death eludes me. No one knows what caused him to commit suicide; all you need to do is look at Kate Spade and Anthony Bourdain. From accounts of those closest to them, they were both happy right before their deaths.

[Midge]

@Keep it Simple

I am sad to say it doesn’t surprise me the number of “well-known” trainers that are jumping on the bandwagon to blame SafeSport for the suicide death of John Coughlin. Yes, he committed suicide the day after he was suspended, but how they can come to the conclusion that his suspension is what caused his death eludes me. No one knows what caused him to commit suicide; all you need to do is look at Kate Spade and Anthony Bourdain. From accounts of those closest to them, they were both happy right before their deaths.

Or assuming it was because he was innocent.

[2bayboys]

@Midge

Or assuming it was because he was innocent.

“There were three complaints alleging sexual misconducted against Coughlin. The first report came from a person over 18 triggering the initial SafeSport action and the first disciplinary action against Coughlin [in December 2018]. Following the first complaint, two additional complaints were also made against him. The other two reports involved minors at the time of the alleged sexual misconduct and went to SafeSport leading to Coughlin’s interim suspension, Thursday night” reported USA Today.

[lmlacross]

Once again, to the OP: you have knowledge of a specific trainer—one you know personally—unscrupulously using/intending to unscrupulously use SafeSport as a tool to exact personal and professional revenge. Are you sure this is so? If not, let’s not traffic in gossip. If you ARE sure, though, why not (as several others have suggested) report this individual as the problem? The alternative—waiting for her plan to come to fruition and subsequently blaming SafeSport for not being able to see what you knew to be true, but kept to yourself—seems not a great plan. Is it that you’re unsure whether this has happened yet? Is it that you’re unsure to whom this behavior should be reported?

The problem is not the potential for a program like SafeSport to be abused, IMO. The problem is empowered adults not reporting those who have expressed intent to abuse it. Not to put too fine a point on it, but it seems you’re passively complaining about the wrong thing when, according to your own post, you could be actively intervening to stop misuse of the program.

[GrayMare]

I really want to address this idea that there is no “due process” with Safe Sport.

First of all, allegations of sexual misconduct are turned over to both Sport AND to the proper authorities if a crime may have been committed. If a complaint is handled by USEF or by Safe Sport, there is a clearly delineated process involving multiple hearings and opportunities for appeals. There very much IS a process.

Secondly USEF is is a sports organization and they are not depriving anyone of property or liberty, just telling people that they can’t participate within the organization. It’s pretty standard for sports organizations to have their own rules and standards of behavior you have to follow to participate. Almost always, those standards of behavior are higher than “just don’t go to jail.” Safe Sport is great because it standardizes how allegations re: sexual misconduct (and other behaviors) are handled across the board in different sports organizations.

Thirdly, there are many good reasons that it would make NO sense for Safe Sport to align itself with the criminal justice system. Laws vary by state, and most states also have statutes of limitations. There also are technical manners by which an offender can escape conviction. It is not unusual for sex offenders to commit MANY offenses before they actually end up convicted of a crime. Many victims do not come forward, and among those that do there are many difficult obstacles facing victims who attempt to seek justice through the courts and so many victims choose not to go this route.

Along this vein, I think there are MANY inappropriate behaviors that are not necessarily illegal but that should not be tolerated by our sport or by competitors/parents within our sport. Look at the list of inappropriate-but-not-illegal behaviors covered by Safe Sport–which of those do you think should be tolerated? Do you think hazing is okay? Trainers taunting students with sexual remarks? Bullying? Should we just go back to turning a blind eye?

A couple of other points:

I think it is important to look at where all this backlash to Safe Sport is coming from. It’s NOT the parents and the competitors. It is from lawyers who represent people who have had complaints made against them. I’m not saying the system is perfect, but those lawyers are an extremely biased source as they are trying to win cases for their clients (and get new clients to defend) by discrediting the entire Safe Sport system.

Also, I agree with @Keep it Simple that it is not appropriate to assume that a Safe Sport suspension caused John Coughlin’s suicide. But, even if you do 100% believe that the Safe Sport suspension was the direct cause of his suicide, I’m not sure what you (the OP or anyone else who thinks that) think should change. There were three allegations made against John Coughlin. How would you suggest that Safe Sport deal with a potential perpetrator in this scenario? Just turn a blind eye because accused parties might be upset or harm themselves? Delay dealing with the situation while there might be ongoing abuse? Sorry, I just don’t think that protecting possible perpetrators or making them untouchable until they have been convicted in a court of law is a reasonable or responsible course of action.

[Scribbler]

Yes, good point about sports organizations already being able to suspend members for actions that in no way go anywhere near being a crime.

I can think of many cases for instance where hockey parents are banned from the arena for getting into fights with the coach or referee or an entire Little League team is suspended for the year because they showed bad behavior at a game. Or college athletes being suspended for poor grades, for testing positive for marijuana (which is not the same as being arrested for possession) or for embarrassing the college in some public way. Etc.

Sports organizations are voluntary clubs, essentially, and a club can impose any rules on its members that it likes.

[mvp]

@Inclined

This is my concern as well, and not just in SafeSport. An individual, whether male or female, needs to be respected as innocent until proven guilty by a court of law. It is too easy today to ruin someone’s reputation for reasons other than sexual harassment/assault. Now, that is not to say that predators shouldn’t experience the full extent of justice - they absolutely should. But we should make very sure that a person is in fact a predator before exposing them to the court of public opinion.

I am a mother of two, and when it comes to the adults my children spend time with, I err on the side of paranoia. If I or DH cannot be present, they usually don’t take part in extracurricular activities. We have personally known of two sexual predators in groups we were involved in and removed ourselves from the groups asap. I say all this to say that I am not unaware that predatory behavior exists, but believe that there need to be some safeguards for all involved - participants and people who may be falsely accused out of spite/jealousy, etc… I don’t have the answers as to how all of the innocent can be protected in this imperfect world, but I think we should be constantly seeking to do the best we can.

So… everyone is innocent until proven guilty until it comes down to your kids and then you “err on the side of paranoia.”

How does that work?

And if you can’t explain the contradiction, how can you criticize anyone else who dumps that principle of jurisprudence when they have some skin in the game?

[BeeHoney]

@NCRider

I would argue that many of the people whose “innocence” is spawning these “OMG safe sport is dangerous for mah innocent friends” posts are likely not so innocent but in fact engaging in an all out war against the program out of self interest and disregard for the rules. Wouldn’t be the first time in many cases.

Yep. EXACTLY this.