Can We Talk About the Abuse of SafeSport?

[GrayMare]

@Inclined

This is my concern as well, and not just in SafeSport. An individual, whether male or female, needs to be respected as innocent until proven guilty by a court of law. It is too easy today to ruin someone’s reputation for reasons other than sexual harassment/assault. Now, that is not to say that predators shouldn’t experience the full extent of justice - they absolutely should. But we should make very sure that a person is in fact a predator before exposing them to the court of public opinion.

I am a mother of two, and when it comes to the adults my children spend time with, I err on the side of paranoia. If I or DH cannot be present, they usually don’t take part in extracurricular activities. We have personally known of two sexual predators in groups we were involved in and removed ourselves from the groups asap. I say all this to say that I am not unaware that predatory behavior exists, but believe that there need to be some safeguards for all involved - participants and people who may be falsely accused out of spite/jealousy, etc… I don’t have the answers as to how all of the innocent can be protected in this imperfect world, but I think we should be constantly seeking to do the best we can.

So, I’m a parent of three, and your post doesn’t make sense to me. So if there’s a teacher at your children’s school that has been accused of molesting or bullying a student or otherwise behaving in an inappropriate fashion, the school should just let them continue teaching until they are convicted of a crime in a court of law?? That just doesn’t seem reasonable to me. The other option is for the school to “quietly handle it” by sending the teacher to another school or district, and I think we all know what a great idea that would be. What if a teacher is accused of inappropriate but not illegal behavior? The school should ignore the behavior because “they didn’t break the law”? Personally I think that concern over the welfare of the kids comes first.

Also, this part about never leaving your kids alone, well, speaking from my own parenting experience, I gotta be honest, I’m a little floored. I’m guessing maybe your kids are little where this kind of parenting is possible, so I’m totally not judging! I mean that, because I was a super careful and paranoid parent when my kids were small. Anyway, you may have the resources to home school your children and never leave them alone with another adult, babysitter, or at an activity or friend’s house ever, but that’s not the norm and certainly not even possible for most families. I’m no expert (3 teenagers keep you humble) but as kids enter into their teenage years, 24/7 parenting could be considered by some to be not only impractical but inappropriate. I’d have to barge into closed rehearsals, after school activities not open to parents, into their friend’s homes, and hover over them at sports events where they are hanging out with their friends and coaches as a team. I’d worry about my kids not developing independence. And I personally think that there are a lot of amazing adult role models out there and that it would be doing my kids a huge disservice to isolate them from those people in our community.

[2bayboys]

@Inclined

This is my concern as well, and not just in SafeSport. An individual, whether male or female, needs to be respected as innocent until proven guilty by a court of law. It is too easy today to ruin someone’s reputation for reasons other than sexual harassment/assault. Now, that is not to say that predators shouldn’t experience the full extent of justice - they absolutely should. But we should make very sure that a person is in fact a predator before exposing them to the court of public opinion.

So you’re OK with applying this to other cases of misconduct and illegal behavior as well?

If your banker is charged with embezzlement, it’s alright with you if his financial institution keeps that quiet and allows him to continue access to your money? There’s usually quite a long period between being arrested for something and having the matter resolved in court. Innocent until proven guilty, right?

[DarkBayUnicorn]

@Scribbler

Yes, good point about sports organizations already being able to suspend members for actions that in no way go anywhere near being a crime.

I can think of many cases for instance where hockey parents are banned from the arena for getting into fights with the coach or referee or an entire Little League team is suspended for the year because they showed bad behavior at a game. Or college athletes being suspended for poor grades, for testing positive for marijuana (which is not the same as being arrested for possession) or for embarrassing the college in some public way. Etc.

Sports organizations are voluntary clubs, essentially, and a club can impose any rules on its members that it likes.

Agreed.

It is not, for example, illegal in a court of law to administer over-the-counter calming aids to horses, but folks are banned from competition for using some of them all the time.

Is body-shaming a crime? Next time you hear a trainer telling a student she’s “too fat” to win in the big eq will you call the cops? (side note: wonder how much internal editing GM will have to do before he speaks every word in public from now on? )

When the younger teen is found crying in her pony’s stall because the older girls are bullying her, are you going to:

a) call the cops (who won’t come)
b) talk to the mean girls’ parents (who won’t listen)
c) take it to the trainer (whose livelihood depends on all of the clients
d) forget you saw her tears and her fears
e) report it to SafeSport?

[adultammylife]

@Inclined

I can’t speak for others, but for myself it’s simply a concern that a good tool not be misused. A hammer is a great tool if you’re building a house, but it can also be used as a weapon to knock somebody in the head. The violence inflicted with it does not make the hammer itself bad. It is absolutely necessary to protect vulnerable individuals from predators, and to express outrage and work for justice and healing for them. Not wishing to see other innocent people (and their reputations) harmed is not a failure to care for the victims. It is simply extending to every innocent person, of whatever age or sex, the same concern and courtesy.

This is a valid concern for sure but its been my experience that people sometimes lean into this concern of false reporting as an excuse to offer more support to the accused than to the victims.

To follow your metaphor, yes - hammers can be used for building a house and as a weapon. But if we were to pull up statistics on how many people used a hammer to build their house vs how many people used a hammer in a homicide…I’m willing to bet that the former would outweigh the latter many many times over.

[Inclined]

@mvp

So… everyone is innocent until proven guilty until it comes down to your kids and then you “err on the side of paranoia.”

How does that work?

And if you can’t explain the contradiction, how can you criticize anyone else who dumps that principle of jurisprudence when they have some skin in the game?

Ok, let’s suppose that the predators I referenced turned out not to be what I thought they were - it’s possible, because I am not infallible. If that’s the case, then the only thing I have done is removed my kids from a non-dangerous situation, and I have not caused permanent damage to someone else’s career, etc… I don’t believe that this contradicts my opinions about SafeSport at all: it’s a good tool to root out true offenders and protect the innocent, but that like all programs, it needs to be constantly safeguarded from misuse. I honestly don’t see the contradiction there. (Did you read my second post?)

[Inclined]

@GrayMare

So, I’m a parent of three, and your post doesn’t make sense to me. So if there’s a teacher at your children’s school that has been accused of molesting or bullying a student or otherwise behaving in an inappropriate fashion, the school should just let them continue teaching until they are convicted of a crime in a court of law?? That just doesn’t seem reasonable to me. The other option is for the school to “quietly handle it” by sending the teacher to another school or district, and I think we all know what a great idea that would be. What if a teacher is accused of inappropriate but not illegal behavior? The school should ignore the behavior because “they didn’t break the law”? Personally I think that concern over the welfare of the kids comes first.

Also, this part about never leaving your kids alone, well, speaking from my own parenting experience, I gotta be honest, I’m a little floored. I’m guessing maybe your kids are little where this kind of parenting is possible, so I’m totally not judging! I mean that, because I was a super careful and paranoid parent when my kids were small. Anyway, you may have the resources to home school your children and never leave them alone with another adult, babysitter, or at an activity or friend’s house ever, but that’s not the norm and certainly not even possible for most families. I’m no expert (3 teenagers keep you humble) but as kids enter into their teenage years, 24/7 parenting could be considered by some to be not only impractical but inappropriate. I’d have to barge into closed rehearsals, after school activities not open to parents, into their friend’s homes, and hover over them at sports events where they are hanging out with their friends and coaches as a team. I’d worry about my kids not developing independence. And I personally think that there are a lot of amazing adult role models out there and that it would be doing my kids a huge disservice to isolate them from those people in our community.

My point was not to debate parenting styles but to illustrate the fact that I am not oblivious to the presence of predators in our society. In response to your first paragraph, I completely agree with you. If you read my second post, you will see that I am not against SafeSport, but am concerned that it constantly be monitored in such a way that innocent reputations aren’t harmed. That was my only point. Imagine if you will, that your son or husband was accused by a woman who had a grudge against him (for employment decisions, academic competition, etc…). Wouldn’t you hope that his employers/school system would investigate the matter as thoroughly and carefully as possible to avoid causing him unnecessary damage? Thankfully, I’ve never been through this personally, but I know of people in local communities who have. It is devastating. Yes, I know false claims are few, and I’m thankful for that. My point was that it seems to be in everyone’s best interest to be constantly improving the way organizations like SafeSport function.

As a side note, yes, the “never leaving them alone” refers to younger children, and I should have referred to that in the past tense. I apologize for any confusion. However, even as our kids have gotten older, we still choose to help them learn to navigate the sometimes dangerous world we live in. They are well-adjusted, thankfully, but they always know they can come to us if something in a situation seems “off.” Yes, we have had to make some financial sacrifices to be this involved, but it’s a choice we wanted to make. Not everybody wants to or feels they can be this involved, and that is fine. Again, this was not the point I was attempting to make, but felt that your second paragraph deserved a reply.

[NoSuchPerson]

@Inclined

Ok, let’s suppose that the predators I referenced turned out not to be what I thought they were - it’s possible, because I am not infallible. If that’s the case, then the only thing I have done is removed my kids from a non-dangerous situation, and I have not caused permanent damage to someone else’s career, etc… I don’t believe that this contradicts my opinions about SafeSport at all: it’s a good tool to root out true offenders and protect the innocent, but that like all programs, it needs to be constantly safeguarded from misuse. I honestly don’t see the contradiction there. (Did you read my second post?)

So what you’re saying is that it’s better to risk leaving other people’s kids in a potentially dangerous situation by saying nothing than to risk speaking up and being wrong about a potential predator?

[vxf111]

@NoSuchPerson

So what you’re saying is that it’s better to risk leaving other people’s kids in a potentially dangerous situation by saying nothing than to risk speaking up and being wrong about a potential predator?

The Penn State theory in action!

[Inclined]

@adultammylife

This is a valid concern for sure but its been my experience that people sometimes lean into this concern of false reporting as an excuse to offer more support to the accused than to the victims.

To follow your metaphor, yes - hammers can be used for building a house and as a weapon. But if we were to pull up statistics on how many people used a hammer to build their house vs how many people used a hammer in a homicide…I’m willing to bet that the former would outweigh the latter many many times over.

Absolutely - most of the people using SafeSport are doing so for valid reasons. I would not argue otherwise. My point was that ANY victim of abuse or ill usage should be given justice. Constantly working to improve a program like SafeSport is in everyone’s best interest, IMO.

[Inclined]

@NoSuchPerson

So what you’re saying is that it’s better to risk leaving other people’s kids in a potentially dangerous situation by saying nothing than to risk speaking up and being wrong about a potential predator?

No, I am not.

Since many of the replies I’ve received seem to imply that I am either a hypocrite or off my marbles, let me give you a little background. My DH was once in charge of a program in our community (years ago and in another location). A man came to him who wanted to be involved in the program and specifically wanted to work with the children’s group. This man further related to him that he had been unjustly accused of “inappropriately touching” some children while in another volunteer position. He declared that he was innocent and that he loved children. Both DH and I were very concerned, and DH called the sheriff’s department for advice on protecting the members of the program, libel, etc… We learned that the individual in question had been banned from the local mall for one year because of reports that he had “fondled” children while working as Santa Clause. The sheriff assured us that informing the program’s members was definitely within my husband’s rights and responsibilities, and DH did so. When the individual learned that he was not going to be allowed to work with the children’s group, he left. In this case, my husband had the position that allowed him to make that decision, and based on the evidence, he did what he believed was best.

In another local community, a community leader was falsely accused by a young woman who had a grudge against him for something non-personal in nature. The accusation was proved false, but by that time the man had lost his job and much of his reputation.

Two different men, two different situations. One was a predator, one was not. SafeSport is a good thing. That does not mean it is a perfect thing, or that it can’t be used for ill. My only point is that we constantly work toward improving the way we protect the innocent.

Side note: the other situations I referenced in earlier posts involved other people, and we dealt with them as best we could at the time with the information we had. At that point, removing ourselves and the kids from the situation was what we believed was best.

[Inclined]

Let me just say that I realize that this is a painful topic for a lot of people. I’ve had several friends over the years who were either molested as children or were raped as teens. It is horrific. There are really no words to describe the extended suffering they endured.

In no way did I intend to come across as unsympathetic or callous to those who have been abused. I am incredibly thankful that programs like SafeSport exist and to the people who have worked so hard to implement them. My concerns were only that a good thing not be used to cause harm. I realize that it is inevitable that some people will knowingly abuse a system, despite how good it may be. For those of you on this board who have suffered abuse or know someone who has, please know that you have my sincerest regard and hope for healing.

[Didi]

I have to have Inclined’s back here. I think both of us just wanted to discuss the matter objectively and listen to all points of view. So many valid points have been made. I am just grateful that we can have meaningful discussions on this forum about things which affect all of us. This, unfortunately, is just not as black and white as saddle fittings or burgundy hunt coats. I am grateful for all of the opinions expressed.

[GrayMare]

@Inclined Can you clarify how you would suggest protecting the rights of the accused?

Let’s say a minor child tells his or her parents that their coach has initiated a sexual relationship or sexual contact with them. At this point, no one knows if the child is telling the truth or is making it up. What should happen next? Should or should not the potential offender be allowed to continue in their position as coach with access to children while the matter is investigated?

Should the fact that an investigation is taking place be disclosed? Or should it be kept secret, leaving the accused free to seek out other coaching opportunities with young people in another location/venue?

[Inclined]

@GrayMare

@Inclined Can you clarify how you would suggest protecting the rights of the accused?

Let’s say a minor child tells his or her parents that their coach has initiated a sexual relationship or sexual contact with them. At this point, no one knows if the child is telling the truth or is making it up. What should happen next? Should or should not the potential offender be allowed to continue in their position as coach with access to children while the matter is investigated?

Should the fact that an investigation is taking place be disclosed? Or should it be kept secret, leaving the accused free to seek out other coaching opportunities with young people in another location/venue?

In earlier posts, I’ve already described what DH and I did in a similar situation. Do I know how with certainty to handle every situation that might come up that would fall into this category? Absolutely not. Greater minds than mine, particularly legal ones, will have to continue to work at it. My point was not that I had all the answers, because I do not. Just because I cannot solve every possible problem does not mean that I should not voice my concerns about potential misuse of a valuable tool.

I feel that the helpfulness of my remaining in this conversation has come to an end. For those of you who have read my posts in the spirit in which they were written, thank you. For the others, I hope you find the answers you are looking for.

[Didi]

GrayMare - the initial scenario did not involve a child reporting an incident. I feel that children should totally be believed at all times. The post was about someone using the “system” to blackmail another since there is no statute of limitations with SafeSport. It was adult accusing adult and, no, adults should not always be believed, especially when there could be ulterior motives at play, as in both the situations I proposed.

If anyone commenting or reading this thread has taken SafeSport training, it is clear that SafeSport is a company selling a product to sports entities. There is nothing wrong with that but, can it be possible that any new product may have bugs or loopholes? Yes. I just wanted to discuss these possibilities with a view toward how this can be a more effective tool. I am sorry that people chose to react negatively to someone expressing her opinion to the point that she was hounded out of the conversation. I didn’t think these boards were about that.

[mvp]

@Tackpud

I’m all for protecting our kids - I’m a teacher and am all about keeping them safe and mentally healthy, but not at the risk of damaging another person’s life and livelihood should the accusations prove false. Then again, horsepeople seem to have short memories and don’t always believe what is clearly in front of them anyways.

Ok, but remember how we got here. Countless guilty adults were protected and fed more victims to prey upon. We have given more privilege and power and slack to those who already have the same, at the expense of those with less power for a helluva long time. If the pendulum has to swing coarsely in the other direction for a bit until everyone involved has a better sense of how to protect innocent and underpowered people from predators, I can accept that.

[TheMoo]

@mvp

Ok, but remember how we got here. Countless guilty adults were protected and fed more victims to prey upon. We have given more privilege and power and slack to those who already have the same, at the expense of those with less power for a helluva long time. If the pendulum has to swing coarsely in the other direction for a bit until everyone involved has a better sense of how to protect innocent and underpowered people from predators, I can accept that.

Never mind people still train with PV and so many people knew about JW. I have a very hard time believing anyone in the horse industry would be damaged beyond repair from a SafeSport accusation.

How hurt are LG and KF from the drug violations?

[Pennywell_Bay]

@Didi

GrayMare - the initial scenario did not involve a child reporting an incident. I feel that children should totally be believed at all times. The post was about someone using the “system” to blackmail another since there is no statute of limitations with SafeSport. It was adult accusing adult and, no, adults should not always be believed, especially when there could be ulterior motives at play, as in both the situations I proposed.

If anyone commenting or reading this thread has taken SafeSport training, it is clear that SafeSport is a company selling a product to sports entities. There is nothing wrong with that but, can it be possible that any new product may have bugs or loopholes? Yes. I just wanted to discuss these possibilities with a view toward how this can be a more effective tool. I am sorry that people chose to react negatively to someone expressing her opinion to the point that she was hounded out of the conversation. I didn’t think these boards were about that.

Raises hand- I have idea what you are talking about.

You realize that Safe Sport Authorization Act of 2017 is a law-right?

And you realize US Center for SafeSport is nonprofit? Not something that was just made up to be able to sell to sports teams… I ask respectfully- what are you talking about?

[mvp]

@Inclined

Ok, let’s suppose that the predators I referenced turned out not to be what I thought they were - it’s possible, because I am not infallible. If that’s the case, then the only thing I have done is removed my kids from a non-dangerous situation, and I have not caused permanent damage to someone else’s career, etc… I don’t believe that this contradicts my opinions about SafeSport at all: it’s a good tool to root out true offenders and protect the innocent, but that like all programs, it needs to be constantly safeguarded from misuse. I honestly don’t see the contradiction there. (Did you read my second post?)

But you did leave the kids who do not belong to parents who have the resources to be the constant source of protection that you are for your kids to be at risk. Is this a Best Practices form of being an adult? Were the shoe on the other foot and you were the working parent, wouldn’t you want a bit more protection than what this offers?

And are you saying you’d remove your kid from the maybe-predator and never speak a word of that to anyone? If so, you slander the unproven-perp. If not, you do as so many others do in aiding and abetting the perp by looking the other way.

[mvp]

@Inclined

Absolutely - most of the people using SafeSport are doing so for valid reasons. I would not argue otherwise. My point was that ANY victim of abuse or ill usage should be given justice. Constantly working to improve a program like SafeSport is in everyone’s best interest, IMO.

But you will not allow that system to work for your kids and the whole reason to do that, you argued, is because of the “innocent before proven guilty” principal that folks like to trot you, Yet your actions with protecting your own kids suggests that you are not willing to be so patient or open minded when you have some skin in the game. That was my point.