Menu

Stay in Touch
Sign up for ENews
Subscribe Now

Unlimited access >

Menu

Can you change the rigging on a western saddle?

Western
#1

I’m not big on using a back cinch, it just adds more weight to my saddle and I always feel like my leg is bumping it when I try to ask his hip to move over.

I like the idea of something along these lines

or this

It’s going to be awhile before I can even start looking for a new saddle so trying to see what options there are with my saddle.

Mine currently looks like this
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/kpPX6thsgwI6xoJd7h3ey9MTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink

Thanks :slight_smile:

#2

Yes you can, but to do it permanently plan on paying $500-600. Price will vary depending on a few things, such as whether the rigging was installed under or on top of the swell cover, whether the saddlemaker needs to buy dye or stamping tools to match the pattern etc.

This might be a cheaper option: http://www.easphotography.com/Tindur/IMG_2925.JPG

Just requires an extra long latigo and a bit of fiddling every time you rig up.

Be aware that true Centerfire position doesn’t work on all horse due to barrel shape, and may require that you get an extra wide cinch. The one in the photo is 9" wide, for example.

#3

You can also use something like this:

http://www.ridingwarehouse.com/Mad_Tack_BioThane_Center_Fire_Rigging_Billet_Set_15/descpage-MTBCFRBS.html

If you attach one long one to your back d ring, and one short one to the front d-ring on each side, then you can use a dressage style girth to get what you are looking for.

Something worth trying if you’d rather not go to a saddler.

#4

The first saddle is not even set up correctly for a center fired rigging. They have it directly under the riders leg. If you hate the rear cinch in the way you will really hate that!

The second one they are using the rear as just a latigo holder. It is doing nothing but keeping the excess from flapping around.

I cannot get the third picture to laod.

If you are not going out and roping cattle why not simply take the rear cinch off? It is not doing a thing.

#5

[QUOTE=2enduraceriders;8016116]
The first saddle is not even set up correctly for a center fired rigging. They have it directly under the riders leg. If you hate the rear cinch in the way you will really hate that!

The second one they are using the rear as just a latigo holder. It is doing nothing but keeping the excess from flapping around.

I cannot get the third picture to laod.

If you are not going out and roping cattle why not simply take the rear cinch off? It is not doing a thing.[/QUOTE]

Couldn’t agree more with this post.

OP, is the only reason why you want to change the rigging on your saddle, is because you don’t like the back cinch?

I would just remove the back cinch then. If you aren’t doing anything that requires it (roping, barrel racing, trail riding up/down steep mountains, etc), and if your saddle fits well, you really don’t HAVE to have it.

#6

Finally got the third pic to load, I hate this internet. The last saddle has a slot for a rear cinch but doesn’t even come with one…

#7

[QUOTE=2enduraceriders;8016126]
Finally got the third pic to load, I hate this internet. The last saddle has a slot for a rear cinch but doesn’t even come with one…[/QUOTE]

The third pic in the OP? That is my saddle, it has the billets hanging for a back cinch but it’s not actually on.

Unfortunately, using the back cinch ring on my saddle to do a set up like aktill suggested didn’t really work the couple of times I tried it, it ended up making my saddle go more forward. Do you think a wider cinch would help with that?

Here is a link to an album of pics/videos that I did a year ago when I was fiddling with this.

Any thoughts on actual fit or rigging suggestions or anything?

Thanks :slight_smile:

https://picasaweb.google.com/111009817625947235626/CodySaddleFit2172014?authuser=0&feat=directlink

#8

[QUOTE=2enduraceriders;8016116]
The first saddle is not even set up correctly for a center fired rigging. They have it directly under the riders leg. If you hate the rear cinch in the way you will really hate that!

The second one they are using the rear as just a latigo holder. It is doing nothing but keeping the excess from flapping around.

I cannot get the third picture to laod.

If you are not going out and roping cattle why not simply take the rear cinch off? It is not doing a thing.[/QUOTE]

In the second picture the latigo starts at the back ring. It’s the “Hope rigging” on JJ Maxwell saddles.

#9

[QUOTE=froglander;8016195]
In the second picture the latigo starts at the back ring. It’s the “Hope rigging” on JJ Maxwell saddles.[/QUOTE]

The JJ Maxwell saddles look like they have the strap attached but the picture you gave OP Link Shows a saddle with the strap ending on the rear ring and it is not attached in any way, just run through as a keeper. You can see the strap is attached on the front ring.

#10

[QUOTE=2enduraceriders;8016116]
The first saddle is not even set up correctly for a center fired rigging. They have it directly under the riders leg. If you hate the rear cinch in the way you will really hate that![/QUOTE]

With all due respect, it’s designed perfectly for a saddlemaker’s definition of centerfire. For some reason a group of folks shanghaied the term centerfire to mean “any saddle with double rigging on the tree, but used with a single cinch”. Endurance saddles in particularly seem to be the worst offenders in the sales material for doing this.

Centerfire in the traditional sense means this:
http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/thesaddleshop/saddle-rigging-positions.jpg
or
http://horseandrider.com/content/content/13181/SaddleRigging1-282x300.png
or
http://eclectic-horseman.com/wp-content/uploads/2004/01/saddle_01.jpg

“Full position” is the front rigging set either under the fork, on the low point of the front bar pad, or something “up front”. The exact location varies depending on the maker, but it’s very forward.

The rear marker is likewise up for debate, but generally is right under the cantle.

Centerfire is then RIGHT BETWEEEN THOSE MARKS, hence “center”. Yes, that’s right under most people’s legs unless the stirrups are hung way forward, but fender position has nothing to do with centerfire. Rigging position depends how the cinch and rigging apply force to the tree, not the fender position.

So when someone comes along and calls this centerfire:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v70/kysaanne/GHS/DSC02768.jpg

…it’s abusing the term centerfire. That’s a double rigged saddle, rigged with a single cinch, with the cinch set at about 7/8 position. It’s NOT centerfire.

Likewise (and I don’t know if this is supposedly centerfire):
http://jjmaxwell.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/step4-300x225.jpg

This is full or 15/16 position, rigged single.

Because using a double rigged saddle without a rear cinch overloads the front of the saddle, and generally causes even a correctly shaped tree to dive down in front.

Centerfire exists because it perfectly balances the forces applied to the tree. It’s directly in the middle of the bar, and tightening the cinch doesn’t cause the tree to creep.

If you use full rigging and a snug rear cinch, you end up with the same thing, but you need two cinches and not all horses have shoulders that allow a cinch that far forward.

By the same measure, not all horses have a barrel that can take a centerfire cinch. Placed that far back, it can impede breathing on some animals. Then there CAN be issues with interfering with leg position, but a good saddle can be designed regardless.

Centerfire is a very traditional vaquero rigging, it’s just not sure common anymore since stock horses have generally changed shape over the years.

#11

Do you mean this photo?:
https://plus.google.com/photos/+KristiHeredia4/albums/5981579715032912257/5981579718366269858?banner=pwa&pid=5981579718366269858&oid=111009817625947235626

This is 7/8 position. Most people whose saddles creep forward rigged like this have one of the following issues:

  1. tree doesn’t fit, so it just slides where it’s closest to fit. Rigging won’t help
  2. when they rig up, they tighten the front rigging strap more than the rear. If you tighten up here first:
    https://plus.google.com/photos/+KristiHeredia4/albums/5981579715032912257/5981579716649254994?banner=pwa&pid=5981579716649254994&oid=111009817625947235626
    …then do up the rear connection only lightly, you’ll often have a wandering saddle. The foreward and rearward parts of the rigging should have equal tension.
  3. they overtighten the rigging, combined with a barrel shape that pulls the cinch forward. Not all horses shapes can live with this style of rigging.

The PIA of adjusting a long latigo properly between two rigging points is why lovely saddles like this exist:
http://www.mhleather.com/Images/Saddles/Popper/rigging%201.JPG

They’re not going to be as forgiving as a double rig is of the tree not fitting but the person just reefing down the rigging to hold it in place. Double rigging and a breast collar will hide a range of sins (which is why there are a lot of horses with white hairs under the saddle).

#12

[QUOTE=kdreger;8016339]
The JJ Maxwell saddles look like they have the strap attached but the picture you gave OP Link Shows a saddle with the strap ending on the rear ring and it is not attached in any way, just run through as a keeper. You can see the strap is attached on the front ring.[/QUOTE]

I just got a JJ Maxwell saddle so I can speak to this directly. Their Hope rigging starts at the back ring. If you look very closely, you’ll see the little leather pieces used to attach the end (tied part) of the latigo to the back ring - you don’t see that on the front ring. So it starts in back, loops through the cinch, run up to the front ring, back down through the cinch to buckle, then excess is looped through the back again. So far I’ve found this to be very stable, Mac has no problems with rolling or slipping, and looking at the sweat marks on the cinch after riding, I can see that the weight is being evenly distributed. With my last saddle, there was more sweat/hair on the front part of the cinch (elbow to elbow, across midline), which told me it was pulling the saddle forward and really concentrating the pressure in one area. Actually, now that I think about it it is pretty clever to start the rigging in the back - like aktill said, one can tend to not get a balanced tightening of the cinch if using a long latigo and starting in the front and then using a back ring as well. Starting in the back seems to help with even weight distribution during cinching up.

froglander, I feel for you as I think Cody and Mac have had similar problems with fitting. Mac’s last saddle rolled side-to-side and also crept forward. The tree was just all wrong for him - too straight, not enough flare - and so the saddle went forward and the pads went out the back and it was a nightmare. So far, this one has been great. Everything stays put where it is supposed to be, the sweat marks are good on his back and the cinch, and he is nice and forward under saddle.

The last saddle I had was a Crestridge and the rigging was similar but the back ring was much farther back. Don’t know how much that contributed to the problems we were having. The CR people call that “centerfire” rigging also.

ETA that I had to really, really make sure my cinch was tight with the CR saddle to try to minimize the slipping/rolling problems, but it still didn’t do the trick.

#13

One of the best things to remember is rigging is barely an issue if the tree fits. Likewise, you need next to no tension on it. I can ride my horse with air between the cinch and horse and the saddle stays put. Therefore you can break all the “rules” (only run a front cinch etc) with no issue.

If the tree doesn’t fit, you can drive yourself nutty with rigging position and tension and the saddle will wander all over the place.

#14

[QUOTE=aktill;8016478]
One of the best things to remember is rigging is barely an issue if the tree fits. Likewise, you need next to no tension on it. I can ride my horse with air between the cinch and horse and the saddle stays put. Therefore you can break all the “rules” (only run a front cinch etc) with no issue.

If the tree doesn’t fit, you can drive yourself nutty with rigging position and tension and the saddle will wander all over the place.[/QUOTE]

Word. :cool:

I no longer have to overtighten my cinch or use a special no-slip pad or use a pad that has a keeper for the latigo or anything. Just a felt pad with a navajo blanket on top because that’s part of the fun and off we go!

#15

“Leather Drop Western “y” Rig Converter” is easy to put on your western saddle, effectively makes your saddle “center-fire” rigged but is simpler for you.

#16

I don’t have a problem with it moving side to side, I will often be riding and have someone tell me my cinch looks loose. Issue seems to be that the saddle will work its way forward some to where it feels tight on his shoulders.

#17

So, in this side shot

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/ccyVQ6DYk_eZWQxupse7YNMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink

where would you think the cinch should lay?

Does the saddle look like it’s just not a good fit?

Also, what about a cinch like this?
http://www.5starequineproducts.com/cinchascinches/y-cinch-natural/

#18

I rode tonight for the first time in 2-1/2 weeks (Cody needed some time off and he saw the chiropractor yesterday).

Saddle actually seemed to not move forward much which was nice. The back of the saddle does bounce some though at the trot (I post) and I worry that it is bouncing on his back in the area where the chiropractor saw some issues. What is it about how a saddle fits that contributes to bouncing in the back?

Also, it seems that where the skirts are laced together in the back it is kind of tight against his spine. Do you think that could be modified to be more forgiving there?

Here is a link to a variety of saddle fit pics over the last year
https://plus.google.com/photos/111009817625947235626/albums/6117401711630484145?authkey=CMiD2YGzqr6DuwE

Here are some pics of what I was trying to describe about the back
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/b2hEKDqFw-E-HNE7SUSAE4jZ_FUU3h7FFr3DUbAWQx4?feat=directlink

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/W_ixMAZQ74vxK3JB_cEX8YjZ_FUU3h7FFr3DUbAWQx4?feat=directlink

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/sYKRXzIcwm_odY4SzG5fEojZ_FUU3h7FFr3DUbAWQx4?feat=directlink

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/PmtZ14W6Tig1Vd5sHiHFFojZ_FUU3h7FFr3DUbAWQx4?feat=directlink

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/ZLEX3Uz_z7GNnA109JWdTYjZ_FUU3h7FFr3DUbAWQx4?feat=directlink

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/eg4GmGHACAMK1DkG6eE5vojZ_FUU3h7FFr3DUbAWQx4?feat=directlink

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/rIyhH7XhXtCBOfKncfcfnYjZ_FUU3h7FFr3DUbAWQx4?feat=directlink

#19

First off, looks won’t tell much. How a saddle fits with the horse standing square on concrete isn’t much value, since nobody much cares to ride a stationary horse. If the saddle is moving significantly, then it’s saying it doesn’t fit.

You’ve said it tends to scoot forward. To generalize, either it fits but you’re saddling up too far back (unlikely), or the forward portion of the bars is too wide.

You’ve said the back bounces. That either reinforces that the front is too wide (diving down at trot), or you’re only using the forward cinch like most people (lots of floppy saddles out there). A full double rigging is dysfunctional without the rear cinch, but that’s only an issue if the tree isn’t a great fit.

In both cases, it’s implying you don’t have a great fit.

In terms of being tight over the loin, if it’s causing a pressure point, odds are the saddle is bridging too. There’s a small chance the saddlemaker fit the rear jockeys too tight, but that’s a beginner mistake, so unlikely. You can’t really fix that and have it look pretty, but you can fix it (figure $300ish to patch and relace). The lack of craftsmanship in the photos you’ve posted isn’t impressing me much, but it doesn’t look dysfunctional.

Finally, where the cinch lies is to some degree a personal preference. If you’re roping heavy cattle (unlikely), full double rigging is a great choice. If you just like double, then run a mohair cinch front and back and do both up (the rear being mohair will give more, and reduce the bouncing of the rear of the saddle). If you want to run a single cinch, we’ve already talked about the options. A Y-cinch will work fine too, but will act identically to the long latigo, v-rigged version.

Not sure if that helps, but with a saddle that really fits, you don’t have these issues.

#20

[QUOTE=aktill;8017516]
You’ve said it tends to scoot forward. To generalize, either it fits but you’re saddling up too far back (unlikely), or the forward portion of the bars is too wide.[/QUOTE]

I always make sure that it is set back when I saddle him. You have put into more succinct words what I have not been able to describe very well about the forward portion of the bars.

You’ve said the back bounces. That either reinforces that the front is too wide (diving down at trot), or you’re only using the forward cinch like most people (lots of floppy saddles out there). A full double rigging is dysfunctional without the rear cinch, but that’s only an issue if the tree isn’t a great fit.

I do only use the front cinch, snug but not tight. How snug would I need the back cinch to make a difference? I have used it in the past and had it where it is just against his sides but I can easily slide a hand under it? It’s hard to adjust sometimes with the holes on the billets–one hole seems too tight whereas the next seems too loose :frowning:

The lack of craftsmanship in the photos you’ve posted isn’t impressing me much, but it doesn’t look dysfunctional.

Could you tell me what you see that makes you say that? Compared to other saddles I see at the barn, had thought mine seemed a little better made, but that could just be what I have to compare it to! There is not much to see for Western saddles down here in south Florida :frowning:

Finally, where the cinch lies is to some degree a personal preference. If you’re roping heavy cattle (unlikely), full double rigging is a great choice. If you just like double, then run a mohair cinch front and back and do both up (the rear being mohair will give more, and reduce the bouncing of the rear of the saddle). If you want to run a single cinch, we’ve already talked about the options. A Y-cinch will work fine too, but will act identically to the long latigo, v-rigged version.

Not sure if that helps, but with a saddle that really fits, you don’t have these issues.

Someday I will have a saddle that really fits, but for now, this is what I have to work with and I am trying to make it work the best I can for my horse :frowning:

This saddle was “supposed” to fit from what I went through in ordering it. (Down here it’s Circle Y saddles or less)

Get your Digital Subscription here - only $21.95 / year

Subscribe here
See gift options

Sign up to our monthly newsletter!

By submitting your email, you agree to our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy. You may also receive promotional emails from The Chronicle of the Horse. You can opt out at any time.

Copyright © 2023 The Chronicle of the Horse