I elected to leave the start box early as an earlier rider had scratched, and was amused when I saw the time faults for what would have been a faster time that was earthly possible on a horse cross country…score lady laughed when I talked to her and adjusted appropriately
[QUOTE=Janet;8936866]
Are you (or someone from IEA) going to be at the annual meeting? Would you be willing to discuss this at the Affiliates meeting? I think it would be valuable to all.[/QUOTE]
YES, my daughter and 2 others, one who is actively stepping into this venture, will be there. My daughter has been a volunteer organizer and since I work with the volunteers also it has been our learning experience to even become to be aware of the complicities!
[QUOTE=pony grandma;8936800]
Our state eventing association, IEA, has been recently collecting ‘stories’ (we’ve got some doseys) that highlight rules and issues to benefit the education of our rider members and volunteers. Your experiences here won’t go un-noticed! Stories tend to make their points more unforgettable. I am sure that many have learned from the recent threads (the start box one as an example) - as well as the number of incidents has shown me - how much confusion, and room for error, is really out there.
And I specifically intend to stress the volunteers education because that is the bedrock of your scoring. This thread, and others, will be shared with starters, finish timers and fence judges.
I also want to add that a TD was adamant to me that they have a fiduciary relationship with the volunteer positions. They have to rely on them. If TDs second guessed or shot down volunteers continually we wouldn’t have any. I see the need to build and maintain volunteer education. USEA needs some training videos for each working position. I am working to try to establish this within our own organization so that our HT can provide the best competition experience that we can.[/QUOTE]
IMO consistent and fair scoring is one the weakest points of recognized events today. It undermines the whole point of the exercise.
When I know that a particular event has repeated scoring problems, I just don’t compete there. It’s against logic because the competition doesn’t measure what I came to measure.
[QUOTE=Hilary;8936848]May I also point out that except for a very few competitions (the olympics, Rolex etc), we are mostly competing for a ribbon that costs $1.50 and some bragging rights. When you decide to make more than a basic inquiry, you will likely be holding up your division and sometimes the entire event while you get your watches squared away, and that will leave a bad taste in the mouth of your fellow competitors. Please think about the grand scheme of things when deciding what to protest.
Yes, if you have a sale horse you want the record as spotless as possible, but if the horse is genuinely good? One event with a scoring flub shouldn’t matter that much.
Also, statistically speaking, if mistakes are made not in our favor, they are also likely being made IN our favor. But few people will come back and say “hey, my watch says you need to give me 20 time faults”.[/QUOTE]
I have a huge, huge disagreement and problem with that attitude when it is directed at amateurs.
I work very hard at my horse sport and invest immoral amounts of time and money. Hours upon hours of training and preparation for competition. Horse bills, trainer bills, my bills. All to compete. I can trail ride, or school around to no real purpose, for a fraction of the cost.
And, a weekend competition is COSTLY. Going to a recognized event is twice as costly.
I am working toward and paying entry fees and dues for a fairly scored competition. Full stop.
Do not anyone DARE tell me to not be competitive at a competition. I can stay home and do that. I can school and clinic and do that. The POINT of the horse trials IS the score.
People wanting to deliver this message are the ones who need to stop and get some perspective. It’s a competition. The riders are invested in it, in every sense. That’s why they came. That’s why they joined the USEA.
If the organization doesn’t take fair and consistent scoring seriously, just tell us, and we can stop paying dues and entry fees.
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[QUOTE=Janet;8936866]
Are you (or someone from IEA) going to be at the annual meeting? Would you be willing to discuss this at the Affiliates meeting? I think it would be valuable to all.[/QUOTE]
Janet, I’ll send you a PM with my email and the email of the other IEA representative going (who is the one spearheading this endeavor). One or both of us would love to discuss this at the Affiliates meeting.
[QUOTE=Hilary;8936848]
Also, statistically speaking, if mistakes are made not in our favor, they are also likely being made IN our favor. But few people will come back and say “hey, my watch says you need to give me 20 time faults”.[/QUOTE]
I have actually witnessed at several events people advising the scorers they had stops when they weren’t marked.
I agree with the poster above. I work very hard to show. I compete to have a good placing. If the timers mistake puts me from 2nd to 6th and I know I was under the time - then I have a right to be pissed. I have spent $300 on an event. I want my results to reflect the ACTUAL ride I had.
[QUOTE=OverandOnward;8936903]
IMO consistent and fair scoring is one the weakest points of recognized events today. It undermines the whole point of the exercise.
When I know that a particular event has repeated scoring problems, I just don’t compete there. It’s against logic because the competition doesn’t measure what I came to measure.
I have a huge, huge disagreement and problem with that attitude when it is directed at amateurs.
I work very hard at my horse sport and invest immoral amounts of time and money. Hours upon hours of training and preparation for competition. Horse bills, trainer bills, my bills. All to compete. I can trail ride, or school around to no real purpose, for a fraction of the cost.
And, a weekend competition is COSTLY. Going to a recognized event is twice as costly.
I am working toward and paying entry fees and dues for a fairly scored competition. Full stop.
Do not anyone DARE tell me to not be competitive at a competition. I can stay home and do that. I can school and clinic and do that. The POINT of the horse trials IS the score.
People wanting to deliver this message are the ones who need to stop and get some perspective. It’s a competition. The riders are invested in it, in every sense. That’s why they came. That’s why they joined the USEA.
If the organization doesn’t take fair and consistent scoring seriously, just tell us, and we can stop paying dues and entry fees.[/QUOTE]
Agree. You can always get your ribbon mailed to you if the scores are being held up by a protest and you want to get home.
[QUOTE=Hilary;8936848]
May I also point out that except for a very few competitions (the olympics, Rolex etc), we are mostly competing for a ribbon that costs $1.50 and some bragging rights. When you decide to make more than a basic inquiry, you .[/QUOTE]
Except especially at the Prelim level and above, it often isn’t just bragging rights. Even a clean XC run with more than 36 time penalties can’t be used as a NQR for a CCI 1* --that means another $400-$500 (just for entry) for yet another event to get a qualifying result, not to mention travel time, wear and tear on horse, etc.
1 Like
[QUOTE=Hilary;8936848]
May I also point out that except for a very few competitions (the olympics, Rolex etc), we are mostly competing for a ribbon that costs $1.50 and some bragging rights. When you decide to make more than a basic inquiry, you will likely be holding up your division and sometimes the entire event while you get your watches squared away, and that will leave a bad taste in the mouth of your fellow competitors. Please think about the grand scheme of things when deciding what to protest.
Yes, if you have a sale horse you want the record as spotless as possible, but if the horse is genuinely good? One event with a scoring flub shouldn’t matter that much.
Also, statistically speaking, if mistakes are made not in our favor, they are also likely being made IN our favor. But few people will come back and say “hey, my watch says you need to give me 20 time faults”.[/QUOTE]
In my case I described in this thread, my first inquiry was in the first 30 minutes after posting and the office staff thanked me for pointing out that the hold times had not been subtracted so that they could correct the times and placings. The second inquiry was made on the side, privately with the TD and fence judge involved, and I specifically told them the placings did not matter so they did not take down the posted results while we discussed so others picked up their ribbons in the meantime. So I wasn’t doing it for the $1.50 ribbon and someone else took it home - no big deal. I just wanted my record, as an AA who was doing my first Training (with the goal of qualifying for a T3D), to reflect accurately on my time. It all worked out in the end in my example, though.
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My original post was a side of the argument that I have heard from competitors and had not been brought up on this thread.
I was not trying to dismiss your hard work. Really. I know exactly how hard it is to compete, work, afford your horse because I do it myself.
My point was, sometimes, please think about the others you might be affecting when you have a complaint.
[QUOTE=asterix;8934659]
I would think if no anomalies on course or with start/finish timers otherwise noted, it would be tough.
Once, years ago, I was held on course. Rider had fallen behind me and I never saw the horse, but jump judge held me. My horse was huge and very very keen, and I really couldn’t manage my watch and him. I was eventually released and sent on. When I checked my score I had LOADS of time faults. At novice. On a horse I was worried about getting speed faults on. I asked whether they had accounted for my hold and was told there was no hold. On investigation it turned out that the jump
Judge had held me on her own and neither timed it or informed anyone else. They erased my time faults and I ended up winning. I felt bad about that because while I am sure I didn’t go too slow, I possibly went too fast (especially after the hold as my horse was pretty wound), but no one, including me, could know for sure.
Barring something like that, I doubt a protest would be successful.[/QUOTE]
Similar thing happened to me many years ago running T - horse fell at a fence, i could not see it and at the last second the jj jumped out to stop me, I finally got pulled up, looked at her and said “did you start your watch?” she had no idea what I was talking about.
I asked her to please radio in that she was holding and my number so I did not get the penalties.
[QUOTE=Hilary;8937009]
My original post was a side of the argument that I have heard from competitors and had not been brought up on this thread.
I was not trying to dismiss your hard work. Really. I know exactly how hard it is to compete, work, afford your horse because I do it myself.
My point was, sometimes, please think about the others you might be affecting when you have a complaint.[/QUOTE]
While I am usually the one rushing to get home to work/ feed, I would hate to think that I got my ribbon unfairly because someone was assigned penalties in error. Whenever I have asked a question about scoring as a competitor, the TD has been pretty encouraging even if the score wasn’t eventually changed.
I was at an event in June in Ontario when it was crazy hot and humid. The start of stadium jumping for my division was delayed because the judge was also president of ground jury and was called away to deal with a protest.
Unfortunately the sound system did not reach out to the trailer parking area so we did not learn of the delay until arriving at the ring.
We all just stood there quietly waiting- there was no shade.
I did not hear anyone express any negative feelings towards the person who had filed the protest causing the delay, resulting in us all having to bake in the heat for an extra 45 minutes or so. It is an accepted part of the sport.
Dear Judy
I clearly remember this particular incident and have different recollection. I’m sorry if it affected your placing however the rider followed the rules and was in the right. TD’s have years of experience and most often make correct calls. In this instance the TD took into account multiple forms of evidence and decided the scoring was incorrect. I also recall the rider (a well mannered child) politely questioning the scoring and following the rules. I hardly think this qualifies as ‘mollifying’ the rider, and the rules are quite clear.
Merry Christmas and best of luck for the 2017 season.
Odd that time-stamped video wouldn’t count for something. Why are officials leaving the grounds while the protest period is still active? Also quite odd.
This might be more amusing than helpful… but, way back when (ie, before helmet cameras), as a groom, I would video the start, keep the camera running, go to wherever on course video some there, and make sure to be at the finish to record that. All the while the camera is kept recording non-stop. Most of the footage was junk (or amusing), but the time code unambiguously recorded the duration. Only had to use it once though. Some courses were trivial to walk from start to finish. Others required a motorcycle. For example, at Millbrook, if you wanted footage of the start, the water, and the finish, better be on a motorcycle. Did it many times. Socially unacceptable now. Looking back, I ask myself, did I really do that?
[QUOTE=Kate Chadderton;8978768]
Dear Judy
I clearly remember this particular incident and have different recollection. I’m sorry if it affected your placing however the rider followed the rules and was in the right. TD’s have years of experience and most often make correct calls. In this instance the TD took into account multiple forms of evidence and decided the scoring was incorrect. I also recall the rider (a well mannered child) politely questioning the scoring and following the rules. I hardly think this qualifies as ‘mollifying’ the rider, and the rules are quite clear.
Merry Christmas and best of luck for the 2017 season.[/QUOTE]
From 3 other eye witnesses that’s not exactly how it happened…except yes there were no bad mannered no tempers, but you can’t come back after the 30 minutes are up as ribbons are being handed out and wave a watch…which doesn t prove dit…and a TD whose words were…Its a judgement call…when there was no hard proof…If it were a starter trial sure but it wasn t…why there are time sheets, scorers,fence judges an TD s…We had bit check same venue who removed my riders Spurs telling her they were illegal…Yet we knew full well they were not after checking USEA and having insured at VA with TD previous weeks the indeed are not…let it go because she was doing what she thought was right…but had no clipboard with copie of photo s or current rules…something as an FEI level 1 Dressage Stewardwe always had in our possession…mistakes can an are made…volunteers are the foundation of every venue, but properly educating them in a even systematic program that is consistent and not someone’s interruptation or judgement call is needed. Video s, laminated cards with bits Spurs whip lengths etc should be required.
Yes. Always check your official time with your watch. I was given a score of time penalties for being too fast, when I knew I’d been 15 seconds slow!. I handed in my watch AND I brought the video my friend took of my ride. The time stamp would’ve helped prove that there was no way I’d been as blazing fast as they said. The secretary looked at my watch, she didn’t even bother looking at the video. It happens. But there is only a set period that you can challenge the results, so now I always check. Same thing with your dressage score- pick up your sheet and add up your score yourself to double check. Had that happen to me, too!
I recently got held on course and was told to stand there, then “canter around a bit”… this went on for a few minutes, and then I was told to “go ahead” when I was at the farthest point from the next jump. Ended up with 7 time faults, which dropped me from 2nd to 6th. Didnt really think I deserved that, but what can you do? The photographer actually got a photo of me standing at a halt on course, which was somewhat funny.
But to be clear, and please correct me if I am incorrect, the facts of this case are:
A junior rider presented to the TD/event officials some forms of proof (Cited by Kate Chadderton) that her time was incorrect and as a result this junior rider stayed in the ribbons, while your owner’s horse, that you manage, ridden by your rider were knocked out of the ribbons.
Are you really slinging this around as an actual issue? I mean sure there are ways to discuss how we all should do more to stay on top of our scores, and check with officials if we find an issue, but doesn’t this somehow come off as, I don’t know, maybe a bit of a whine fest? That kid possibly doesn’t deserve to have her appeal (which is within her rights as a competitor) aired about on social media because you lost a ribbon. I mean this would fall under a ‘pick your battles’ moment for me.
Just my 2 cents.
~Emily
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[QUOTE=Xctrygirl;8993320]
But to be clear, and please correct me if I am incorrect, the facts of this case are:
A junior rider presented to the TD/event officials some forms of proof (Cited by Kate Chadderton) that her time was incorrect and as a result this junior rider stayed in the ribbons, while your owner’s horse, that you manage, ridden by your rider were knocked out of the ribbons.
Are you really slinging this around as an actual issue? I mean sure there are ways to discuss how we all should do more to stay on top of our scores, and check with officials if we find an issue, but doesn’t this somehow come off as, I don’t know, maybe a bit of a whine fest? That kid possibly doesn’t deserve to have her appeal (which is within her rights as a competitor) aired about on social media because you lost a ribbon. I mean this would fall under a ‘pick your battles’ moment for me.
Just my 2 cents.
~Emily[/QUOTE]
Gee Emily first of all read the original post…No name no event name…was posted nor was it sour grapes…why is it you choose to incite and make something a mud sling…were you there…I could give 2 rats pattooties about a $1.50 ribbon or a record for a NOT For Sale Ever horse…But I do wonder how lack of a supporting time,sheet, zero holds within that division no other time complaints…and when TD was asked to validate her decision so as to make best use of the experiance…She says…" It’s a judgement call"…why you feel necessary to weigh in and blow this up I have no clue…No mud was slung, and none of,this was,third hand nor was anyone called a cry baby or bad sport…I was beyond thrilled,to,have 2 clean training XC runs, one on a horses first ever Training… didn t anticipate a placing and played by the rules …We all 3 of use just were just suprised…AND EMILY I started this not to do anything but ask…You are making it something it wasn’t…why I have no idea.
