Now I am not stupid…It wasn t my time penalties…But I observed an interaction and was very very curious, coming from a family with Swimming Competitors where “The Official Time Stood” period…Pitting your personal watch…well after your run is over…against the “official Clock” how does that work…your watch can be diddled with while you are pondering the penalty impact…I tried to Google it but found nothing…maybe I am stupid:lol::yes::eek::D:winkgrin:
I suppose it depends on whether the fence judges have coordinated timers? But perhaps this is only at FEI events? Once I was judging the last fence and I must have transposed 2 numbers, so that the time one horse jumped my fence was AFTER the official final time. The TD came and talked to me after the score sheets were reviewed, and we decided that was what happened.
All I can say is hit your watch after you cross the line…hard habit to learn. I received huge speed faults once and I know I was right within the time but didn’t stop my watch. They had me 1 minute faster than any other novice horse in the whole event. No way possible. I challenged the results, but it didn’t do any good.
I would think if no anomalies on course or with start/finish timers otherwise noted, it would be tough.
Once, years ago, I was held on course. Rider had fallen behind me and I never saw the horse, but jump judge held me. My horse was huge and very very keen, and I really couldn’t manage my watch and him. I was eventually released and sent on. When I checked my score I had LOADS of time faults. At novice. On a horse I was worried about getting speed faults on. I asked whether they had accounted for my hold and was told there was no hold. On investigation it turned out that the jump
Judge had held me on her own and neither timed it or informed anyone else. They erased my time faults and I ended up winning. I felt bad about that because while I am sure I didn’t go too slow, I possibly went too fast (especially after the hold as my horse was pretty wound), but no one, including me, could know for sure.
Barring something like that, I doubt a protest would be successful.
I rode in an event where the red flag had blown over at the first fence. The Timer began counting me down just as a guy came out to fix it. He was standing with his butt in front of the fence, as he was trying to nail the flag back up. The Timer said, “Have a nice ride!” Are you kidding me? I left the box in a very slow canter and began yelling, “Horse on course! Horse on course!” Right before I got to the fence the guy finally moved. I was so rattled that it took me 5 fences to really get my rhythm. I had time penalties.
I put in an “Inquiry”, which does not cost $100, like a protest would. The President of the Ground Jury came to speak with me. He told me, “I was standing at Jump #1 watching your approach to the fence. I thought that you rode it very tactfully. Your inquiry is therefore denied.” What do you say to something like that? ''It knocked me out of my rhythm", did not mean a thing to him, because I had ridden it so well. Well, that was a bunch of garbage. It was a very effective way to get rid of me quickly. :mad:
OP, I hope that you find the answer to your question.
This is why I love the advent of video photography; if you can, always have someone who can film your entire course. Of course, at some of the bigger and more hilly events it’s hard to do!
I had it happen to me too, but did not protest because it did not affect my standing in what was a very competitive Training class. However… I was held on course and paused my watch immediately (thankfully, I had a TB that would be just as happy sleeping as going XC!) - my time was about a minute less than theirs!
What if I said the TD gave it a “Judgement call” and reversed the standings and gave the protester the placing…and this is after the ribbons were in process of being handed out when a last ditch effort was put forth…they had apparently complained earlier before the last 30 minutes and were told time is time…30 seconds into ribbons being handed out they arrived with a watch in hand…I am just trying to figure out how this works if my riders ever have an issue…it’s always good to have tools in your box and this was a whooper of a tool…you can protest time…there were No Holds and No one else in that division had a complaint…
Like barnmaven, I got a huge time penalty and knocked down in standings after cross country. I knew what my watch said so I did the calculations on paper for what the MPM average was my time vs the posted score and I then tracked down the TD.
I told her that if the posted time was true I would have been doing a Prelim speed at Beginner Novice and seeing as how I was not pulled over for DR, something is not right. She said she’d looked into and they later found the timer at the finish transposed two numbers.
That only worked, because the time was just that far off. and my watch time was close enough to the timer to see the transposition. If the discrepancies are closer it might be harder to prove a timer fault. Still, doing the numbers and challenging based on pace may help.
I’ve inquired about time penalties 2x and they were removed.
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I was about :20 slow, and they wrote me down as 2:20 slow. I inquired, they reviewed the timer sheets, and it sounds like from looking at the other times/finish order they had just written me down wrong (in this case it was more about the NQR than the placing).
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About 1/3 of the way through my course I caught up to the previous rider, who was having a lot of trouble at the water. I wasn’t able to pass there (it was a rec event, but a small one, JJ were mostly kids, rider wouldn’t yield and JJs weren’t waving her). I was stuck behind her about 7 fences until she ultimately fell and I was held a few minutes. I had some time (~30 sec I think) and talked to the TD about having been impeded prior to the hold, having to circle during her water issues, JJ corroborated and they removed the penalties.
So it certainly can happen, but short of an unusual xc occurrence or a recording mistake I’m not sure how you’d make the case using your watch alone.
At a recent event I was given time penalties when I knew I had gone fast enough.
By the time I realized it, it was bascally too late to protest and I didn’t want to make a stink about it. BUT it turns out I wasn’t the only one they were way off on the time. It is annoying as I would have been 2nd or 3rd and ended up 5th but just decided I didn’t care (not on a sales horse) but I could see where this could be an important issue.
In my case, they couldn’t even get the TD on the radio…and I didn’t want to wait around knowing it would be tough to get it over turned. IME it really just depends on the mood of the TD.
I have had it removed or adjusted and I’ve had it not changed. It is very dependent on the official involved (and very frustrating if they are slow to post scores and you have to leave only to find they screwed up and gave you the finish time of the horse you passed on course!). As a general rule always ask if you think something is wrong. Be polite and respectful but firm.
Having worked in Scoring at a reasonably large event for many years, I can tell you that it is ALWAYS worth asking if you truly feel you were wronged. Many times Scorers, Control, Start, Finish, the TD and/or Ground Jury can figure out whether an error was made and can rectify it. BUT you have to do it within 30 min of scores being posted.
We have checked the order through each fence, whether there was a hold and how long, computer input (you have NO idea how easy it is to make an error in input when 300 plus horses are running) and written records to back up a rider’s claim. New computer programs highlight outliers which make it much more likely Scoring will find the error before posting, but one’s eyes become a little wonky after 8 hours or so of sitting in 90 degree heat looking at a computer. So be kind to your scorers!
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Since I have the prospective of having xc coordinating experience I will add: It is very useful if a few fence judges are designated to record time on course as riders pass their fences. This helps establish a history for the TD to see some picture of what was happening.
Holds on course can be problematic. Riders need to learn more about them to be more proactive. Case in point: DD was held at a non designated hold fence on course. I happened to be standing right there at that fence, as well as another experienced person. None of us saw a time piece, nor was my daughter told where her hold time marker point was, she was just told ‘ok you can go now.’ We have the video, she was making time, moot point a bit to this example being given here. NO time was deducted from her score, all the hold time was racked up as time penalties. After 1st inquiry she still had time penalties. 2cd inquiry … And then she was told that her time was figured from another riders hold time on course. So riders need to ask to see a time piece and where their markers are. I encourage fence judges (and I physically practice the holds at radio call at their fences with all the designated ones) to show the rider that they are being timed and point out to them where their marker is.
Another thing I just recently learned (after yrs of not knowing this ??? ) the controller can help with a hold. Especially at non designated fences. The controller can have a stop watch and the fence judge can pick a marker and tell them now when the rider passes and restart the same way. And now people have cell phones with stopwatches on them. I just encounter resistances from people afraid to do holds and I repeatedly offer training to make this less of an issue.
Since fence judges can be inexperienced and especially nervous about doing holds it is problematic for fence assignments because a hold fence needs to be a visual one for the space needed to use a marker, and then pull up the rider, and it needs to be a straight forward fence that is easy to re-establish your speed. But you then need an experienced fence judge on an easy fence.
Now knowing that a good controller can aid this anxiety for undesignated hold fences I will be adamant about using this procedure when we can. Altho a hold is involving the controller for a reason that they may be extremely busy with in the moments (ie rider fall etc), if they work with an experienced announcer as some do they can step in. But you can now see what all is actually happening out there on course! And I’ve had controllers so busy in the moment that a hold is not called to the start box… that’s another whole forum thread.
I ran my first Advanced in 2012 at Rocking Horse, and was pretty damn proud when according to my watch I came in only a couple seconds over the optimum. So I was pretty surprised when I checked the online scores and they said I’d come in exactly a minute under optimum time! I distinctly remembered hitting every single minute marker and knew there was no way I had gone so fast. A minute under would have been vastly unsafe.
Now, there are no speed faults at that level, but there is the stigma of going so fast as to be unsafe…which is deserved if it actually occurs. So I was extremely embarrassed when EN’s article mentioned my speed and quickly emailed a correction to them, after which they very kindly amended the article. Then the TD came wandering over to our barn (we were stabled for the winter on grounds) and had a chat with my coach who thankfully was aware of the discrepancy and was able to back me up when I handed over my watch to prove I hadn’t gone that fast.
Thankfully, the TD was quite reasonable about it; really, if a rider had been going that fast I almost certainly hope they would have been pulled for DR.
I think those of us who ride with helmet cams could make a pretty convincing case. I don’t always use mine but I never thought about “proof of time” before. Maybe I’ll use it more often! I have seen a couple of people get screwed on time in the last year.
I’ve gotten a small number of time faults (on a horse I got speed faults with on Phase D of the N3D) because of the way the starters sent me out. Basically there was a hold and they held me at the start and then, with about 30 seconds warning (at this point I was strolling around on a long rein) were like 3-2-1 GO! I didn’t bother protesting since I didn’t think my case was very strong.
I was once the fastest rider in an Intermediate division (can’t remember if I made time or only had a few seconds over) and another rider protested her time. The basis of her protest was that she thought she had been going fast, so the timers made a mistake. The unspoken basis of her protest was that she was riding a TB, as were others in the division, and I was riding a tank of a horse. (To be fair, his name was Moose ;))
Her protest was dismissed. When I found out about it, a few of my friends who’d been watching said that I was very efficient on course, both with my lines and with balancing approaches and accelerating from landings. The other riders in the division were galloping between fences, but did not ride efficiently - the one who protested was taking about 20 strides on approach to get her horse slowed and balanced.
[QUOTE=pony grandma;8934902]
Holds on course can be problematic. Riders need to learn more about them to be more proactive. Case in point: DD was held at a non designated hold fence on course. I happened to be standing right there at that fence, as well as another experienced person. None of us saw a time piece, nor was my daughter told where her hold time marker point was, she was just told ‘ok you can go now.’ We have the video, she was making time, mute point a bit to this example being given here. NO time was deducted from her score, all the hold time was racked up as time penalties. After 1st inquiry she still had time penalties. 2cd inquiry … And then she was told that her time was figured from another riders hold time on course. So riders need to ask to see a time piece and where their markers are. I encourage fence judges (and I physically practice the holds at radio call at their fences with all the designated ones) to show the rider that they are being timed and point out to them where their marker is.[/QUOTE]
Just adding to this since I am DD - I did in fact “win” the 2nd inquiry on this. I was able to produce my watch, with my recorded time (just under OT) as I had (thankfully) remembered to stop/start my watch as soon as I knew I was being held. However, me presenting my watch was kind of secondary and I do not think they would have granted me the inquiry with just that. The TD, fence judge, and I discussed the situation together and they decided to change my time to OT since they were in the wrong for how my hold was recorded and because I had a good attitude about it all (i.e. I didn’t get pushy and the fence judge commented on how calm, cool, and pleasant I was during the long hold). So just adding that a good and respectful attitude goes a long way sometimes with officials, show staff, and volunteers. 
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This happened to me once when I filled in at Novice on an easy horse because the regular rider was sick or injured or too busy to go to the competition. I cruised around the course without issue so was very surprised to see that I’d racked up 2 minutes worth of time faults. At Novice.
The answer was a simple one. The horse scheduled to go in front of me had scratched and the starter forgot to correct my starting time. Riders set off at two-minute intervals – it was all very clear as to what happened. I wasn’t wearing a watch because I had zero concerns about making the time on that horse at that level.
I went to talk to the TD about it, with papers in hand showing start times and scratches. The TD looked at it and said ‘Ok, we’ll split the difference. I’ll take a minute off of your time.’ I explained that I didn’t see this as a negotiation to discard time faults but rather a straightforward correction of a starter’s error. The TD said ‘Well, one minute is the best I can do.’
If that really is the best you can do, you’re a moron and not fit for your TD license.
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Yes. I had a case earlier this year where the timing tape was not easy to read and I was given 48 time penalties. I had already left the event, and found it out on event entry scores. The TD told me that they could not do anything, ( basically , suck it up )but I also talked to organizer. No one else in the division had any time penalties and I explained I would have had to walk the course to get that many. She researched it, had an additional competitor also question their penalties, and when they looked at the tape, the 6 and 8 were not readable. Turns out , if it is math issue, then you can protest until the event is finished, not only within the 30 min.
