The point is the criteria is the same, it is 3 generations to get into the Stud Book or Mare book. It isn’t the names (which are different) it is the structure that is the same and due to the fact the CW went to Germany and consulted with them in setting up their books. The scores are the same (the level of judging of course is different) and the AUX is the COP and the Pre-Books hold the same function and same qualifications for known genereations.
Not all registries are as similar.
[QUOTE=stoicfish;8219529]
The point is the criteria is the same, it is 3 generations to get into the Stud Book or Mare book. It isn’t the names (which are different) it is the structure that is the same and due to the fact the CW went to Germany and consulted with them in setting up their books. The scores are the same (the level of judging of course is different) and the AUX is the COP and the Pre-Books hold the same function and same qualifications for known genereations.
Not all registries are as similar.[/QUOTE]
Well I guess we will have to agree to disagree. You clearly do not understand the selection criteria for the Hanoverian registry…not much more I can say.
As someone who has horses in both Canadian Warmblood AND Hanoverian Verband, I can tell you most emphatically they are not at all the same.
For the Hanoverian Verband in Canada, when a Canadian-based VhW-registered mare is presented for approval, she must achieve an overall score of 6, and not have any score less than 5 in any one category and be entered into the Main Mare Book (H Book). If her scores fail to meet this requirement, she may be allowed entry into the Mare Book (S Book) - maybe she was lame and could only be visually inspected and not trotted out thus she has missing requirements but the committee still felt she was of value to the studbook and will allow her to be bred. As far as I am aware, Canadian-based VhW mares are not allowed to be in the Pre-Mare Book (V Book) and have registerable foals.
For a non-Hanoverian mare (including non-WB mares) to become approved with Hanoverian Verband, the demands are much greater and it is a 2-step process.
(1) Her pedigree, competitive records, SPT and competitive records of her sire and damsire must be submitted to the VhW Studbook Committee for approval.
(2) Once her pedigree has been approved, she may then be presented in hand at the inspection. Not only do they inspect this mare with more critical eyes, but a Non-Hanoverian mare (or non-WB mare) must attain scores of 7 or higher with no score of less than 6 in order for her to be approved. She MUST be eligible for the Main Mare Book. Period. If she does not qualify for the Main Mare Book, she is flat out refused. They have a tendancy to refuse a LOT of mares and non-Hanoverian mares who have been injured and are lame will almost never be eligible for inspection. Very few TB, Arabian, Anglo-Arabian, or Shagya mares are approved. Period. The opinion of the VhW is that for a “foreign” WB mare or non-WB to be accepted into their studbook, she had better offer something exceptional that is to the benefit of the studbook as a whole, (unique, valuable, or special bloodline/pedigree, in addition to the conformation, movement and temperament requirements), or she is not wanted in the studbook at all. Period. VhW tracks their mare families to the Nth degree and assigns all Hanoverian mare families a name and number. All foreign marelines entered in their studbooks are also carefully tracked and monitored. *Very few foreign mares are given the honor of being named as the foundational mare of her mare family and given a mare family number.
^^ This is the major difference between VhW and Canadian Warmblood. When (IF) Canadian Warmblood accepts Arabian, Thoroughbred, Anglo-Arab or Shagya mares, they put them in lesser books. They are approved and still eligible for breeding, and their offspring generationally can climb the studbook rankings. After 3 generations, fillies can be inspected and approved into the MMB. Canadian Warmblood does not accept any old Arab or TB mare either, but there are rules as to what studbook these non-warmblood mares can be entered into. Canadian Warmblood also will inspect WB mares from other WBFSH recognized studbooks (there is a list of 10 or so that they accept) and based on her scores achieved during inspection depends on what studbook she is eligible for.
So to sum it up in a nutshell - CW will inspect and place a mare in a variety of studbooks depending on breed or inspection scores. VhW demands all non-VhW mares (including non-WB mares) to be eligible for the Main Mare Book or she is refused outright.
I’ve had a number of non-WB and non-Hano mares approved into the VhW studbook so am very familiar with the system and process. Also, as a side note, Canadian Warmblood mares can be eligible for inspection with the VhW. As with other non-hanoverian mares, they need to submit to the 2-step process and have an eligible pedigree and meet the scoring requirements.
Just checked in again, and wow! Thanks for all the responses and great discussion!
Just a question about CW and having to trace back their pedigrees to the “original” warmbloods in order to be considered a “purebred”…if a mare or stallion are inspected and they cannot be traced back to the certain warmbloods that form the foundation of the CW breed, won’t their offspring continue to be registered as partbreds? How does CW expect to continue as a “breed” if they cannot register and breed the animals that they say make up a Canadian Warmblood? Wouldn’t CW be considered an evolving breed too?
[QUOTE=Horizon;8221353]
Just checked in again, and wow! Thanks for all the responses and great discussion!
Just a question about CW and having to trace back their pedigrees to the “original” warmbloods in order to be considered a “purebred”…if a mare or stallion are inspected and they cannot be traced back to the certain warmbloods that form the foundation of the CW breed, won’t their offspring continue to be registered as partbreds? How does CW expect to continue as a “breed” if they cannot register and breed the animals that they say make up a Canadian Warmblood? Wouldn’t CW be considered an evolving breed too?[/QUOTE]
Rest assured that CW is operating under very tight oversight of our Federal Government. If they say they are a Distinct Breed…they are a Distinct breed. Purebred is not really a term that apply to our National Warmblood studbook and warmblood studbooks of other countries possibly with the exception of the Trakehner which operates very differently.
Sounds like you have some very specific questions. I encourage you to contact your local Canadian Warmblood representation to discuss this in more detail. Our Association President lives in Prince Albert and I’m sure would be happy to discuss the nitty gritty details of our studbook organization.
Just checked in again, and wow! Thanks for all the responses and great discussion!
Just a question about CW and having to trace back their pedigrees to the “original” warmbloods in order to be considered a “purebred”…if a mare or stallion are inspected and they cannot be traced back to the certain warmbloods that form the foundation of the CW breed, won’t their offspring continue to be registered as partbreds? How does CW expect to continue as a “breed” if they cannot register and breed the animals that they say make up a Canadian Warmblood? Wouldn’t CW be considered an evolving breed too?
In order to even be eligible for registration, they have to trace back to the founding stock. Once again, it isn’t the lack of Wb ancestors that create a part breed, it is the fact (as shown by the Hanoverian stallion example) that TB and Trak blood cannot be considered WB as they are already breeds with in Canada. So according to Canadian law, they are not part of the founding stock.
It is an issue with Canadian law and the nature of Wb’s. Most all Wb’s have Tb so there will probably not be, Canadian Law purebreds, but so what?
It is a technicality of law and not a reflection of the quality of the horse. An evolving breed has no mentioned founding stock, which is not the case for the goals of a WB registry. Wb registries have rules of exclusion and much of that is bases on pedigree. It is the same with CW except for the Canadian laws pertaining to Breed classification.
Is that more clear? 
[QUOTE=stoicfish;8222277]
In order to even be eligible for registration, they have to trace back to the founding stock. Once again, it isn’t the lack of Wb ancestors that create a part breed, it is the fact (as shown by the Hanoverian stallion example) that TB and Trak blood cannot be considered WB as they are already breeds with in Canada. So according to Canadian law, they are not part of the founding stock.
It is an issue with Canadian law and the nature of Wb’s. Most all Wb’s have Tb so there will probably not be, Canadian Law purebreds, but so what?
It is a technicality of law and not a reflection of the quality of the horse. An evolving breed has no mentioned founding stock, which is not the case for the goals of a WB registry. Wb registries have rules of exclusion and much of that is bases on pedigree. It is the same with CW except for the Canadian laws pertaining to Breed classification.
Is that more clear? :)[/QUOTE]
Yes, thank you! I understand now. I didn’t know the Government had such restrictions on the way CW registers its horses. It makes it look a bit funny on paper!
CSH and Canadian warmblood merger
If memory serves, a few years ago an attempt was made to merge(whatever term you choose) the CAnadian warm blood registry and Canadian Sporthorse registery. Apparently one side said the other had too many thoroughbreds. Anyhow an agreement was never reached.
Officials debating the merger should have been locked in a room until a decision was agreed on. That would have solved the problem.
However …
[QUOTE=rubles;8222750]
If memory serves, a few years ago an attempt was made to merge(whatever term you choose) the CAnadian warm blood registry and Canadian Sporthorse registery. Apparently one side said the other had too many thoroughbreds. Anyhow an agreement was never reached.
Officials debating the merger should have been locked in a room until a decision was agreed on. That would have solved the problem.
However …[/QUOTE]
It does seem silly that there are two Canadian registries essentially doing the same thing, but a technicality under the law is what makes them different.
[QUOTE=Horizon;8222956]
It does seem silly that there are two Canadian registries essentially doing the same thing, but a technicality under the law is what makes them different.[/QUOTE]
They are actually doing things very differently. One of the key differences is the selection of a physical type with Canadian Sporthorse as compared to strict pedigree limitations with Canadian Warmblood. Another significant difference is that CSH has a strong Hunter breeding history, where Canadian Warmblood’s selection criteria for movement and type are more based on the European model of selection for jumpers and dressage horses. That doesn’t mean there isn’t cross over, but if you attend enough shows and inspections of both organization, this difference becomes quite clear.
I’m not saying one is better or worse…but it does mean merging these two organization is actually quite complicated.
And want to add that I think the bigger problem is that there are about 12 organizations in total doing the same thing in Canada…that’s what seems silly to me. I’m less bothered by having 2 Canadian Options for registering Canadian Bred Sport and Warmblood horses.
Why do people support 10 foreign Sport and Warmblood registries when they could be registering those horses with our domestic studbooks. I really struggle to understand why a Canadian bred, Canadian raised horse, owned by a Canadian citizen or resident does not get papers for it’s country of birth. Don’t your kids get a Canadian Passport…then why not your horse? If they are not born in Belgium or Holland etc etc…they are really not Belgian Warmbloods or Dutch Warmbloods…and insert whatever foreign studbook applies.
OK…off my soapbox now. Going to cheer on our Canadian Pan Am teams now, and hope some day the those teams will be mounted on Canadian Bred and Canadian Registered horses…so both our horse and riders ride under the same flag.
Go Canada Go
Two highways, same destination
The goal of both registries is to breed quality horses for high level competition that will pass their conformation and competitive abilities to their offspring. They take different roads but the destination is the same.
I too feel Canadian born horses should be registered in Canadian registries.
AND
I believe that some imported European warmbloods and semen have brought undesirable qualities with them. The individual horses are great and it takes time for the bad genes to express themselves.
[QUOTE=Manni01;8219412]
Not sure if it was mentioned here, but in Hannover they also breed Hannovarian Cross Racehorses (not sure if I translated that right) Those are horses with a very high percentage of TB but still branded Hanoverian. I assume some of those are also used for eventing, but originally they were bred for racing. Its something unique that a Warmblood registry breeds and registers Racehorses
http://www.hannoveraner.com/hannoveraner-verband/zucht/philosophie/zuchtziel/zuchtprogramm/
sorry, did not find an english link. this one is only in German[/QUOTE]
Not unique at all. The Selle Francais were doing it for the last 80+ years, until 2005 when the AQPS were given their own stud book.
Selle Francais registered horses have won all the biggest prizes in jump racing, the Grand National, Cheltenham Gold Cup, the King George, Grand Steeplechase de Paris, Champion Hurdle, Grand Course des Haies, Queen Mother Chase etc etc etc.
Although the question of what CWHBA considers a “purebred” is an interesting one, and one that I don’t know the answer to (even though I have a mare approved CWHBA and her CWHBA son) I don’t think it matters a whole heck of a lot. For instance, I used to own a mare that was approved CWHBA and achieved premium status. I bred her to an Oldenburg (GOV). I then had her approved for GOV breeding. She had two offpring for me, both by a GOV stallion. Those offspring are reg’d GOV. One of them is a mare, although she is GOV, I had her approved CWHBA for breeding. I bred her to a CWHBA approved stallion. The resulting offspring is reg’d CWHBA but I don’t think he would be considered purebred as he is the result of a GOV mare and a stallion who is approved and (I think) registered CWHBA. Clear as mud right? :lol: At the end of the day, these horse are all closely related but are two different registries. And imo, pretty nice horses. 
[QUOTE=Mozart;8227852]
Although the question of what CWHBA considers a “purebred” is an interesting one, and one that I don’t know the answer to (even though I have a mare approved CWHBA and her CWHBA son) I don’t think it matters a whole heck of a lot. For instance, I used to own a mare that was approved CWHBA and achieved premium status. I bred her to an Oldenburg (GOV). I then had her approved for GOV breeding. She had two offpring for me, both by a GOV stallion. Those offspring are reg’d GOV. One of them is a mare, although she is GOV, I had her approved CWHBA for breeding. I bred her to a CWHBA approved stallion. The resulting offspring is reg’d CWHBA but I don’t think he would be considered purebred as he is the result of a GOV mare and a stallion who is approved and (I think) registered CWHBA. Clear as mud right? :lol: At the end of the day, these horse are all closely related but are two different registries. And imo, pretty nice horses. ;)[/QUOTE]
It isn’t based on the registry as CW accepts most of the major European registries. The “purebred” is about the European ancestry of the horse minus the Tb influence.
Another example is [URL=“http://www.clrc.ca/cgi-bin/pedigree.cgi?_breedcode=WC&_countrycode=DEE&_association=27&_regnumberprefix=&_regnumber=330887081&_regnumbersuffix=”]Donnerhall.
He is of course a pivotal and famous dressage sire. However if you follow the rules of the Canadian Pedigree Act, he is “76.5625% European Warmblood”, and to be called a purebred under the Act, you must be 7/8 or 87.5%.
So according to the Act, Donnerhall is not a purebred. Obviously not an indication of quality or European pedigree.
Foundation stock
Foundation stock animals are referred to in the Animal Pedigree Act as being, “in relation to a distinct breed, [means] such animals as are recognized by the Minister as constituting the breed’s original stock.”
The starting basis of a sound registry system is twofold.
First, the foundation or original stock must be defined. In practice, each breed represented by an association under the Animal Pedigree Act should have a physical description which establishes a minimum requirement or range for specific distinguishing characteristics of the breed. On this basis, the animals which meet the criteria are selected and constitute the foundation stock for a newly-recognized breed in Canada. Where established registries exist elsewhere in the world for a particular breed, it may be desirable to treat its registered population prior to a fixed date as the foundation population (see Chapter 4 - Recognition of Foreign Registries).
Second, all registered animals must show a relationship to the foundation population. A registry is really a pedigree tracking system in which rules of eligibility are applied. Under the Animal Pedigree Act no animal may be declared purebred if it does not carry at least 7/8ths relationship back to the original foundation stock or to other registered purebreds of that breed. To register animals which are less than purebred, the association must indicate in its by-laws the definition of purebred and must issue certificates which specify the percentage purebred. In essence, by defining the foundation population and ensuring that all registered animals trace back to them, assurance is given that progeny will exhibit the expected standard characteristics of the breed. [Note: In other countries, registries may not always apply rules of eligibility that enforce relationship back to a common foundation and/or apply breed standard requirements. In such cases it may be more appropriate to refer to them as books of record rather than as registries in order to distinguish the two.]
Voltaire: Hanoverian
Influential Stallions in pedigree: VAS Y DONC, ROYAL CHESNUT, CHERBOURG, CONQUERANT, KAPIRAT, NORMAND, PLEDGE, SEDUCTEUR, ALDERMAN I, FLING, GOLDSCHLÄGER I, LANDESSOHN, ACHILL, MALCOLM, FLICK, CICERO, NORFOLK, SCHLÜTTER, ZERNEBOG
Donnerhall: Oldenburg
Influential Stallions in pedigree: VAS Y DONC, CHERBOURG, CONQUERANT, KAPIRAT, NORMAND, PLEDGE, SEDUCTEUR, ALDERMAN I, FLING, GOLDSCHLÄGER I, LANDESSOHN, MALCOLM, RUBICO, FLICK, RUTHARD, WITTELSBACHER, CICERO, NORFOLK, SCHLÜTTER, ZERNEBOG
Contender: Holsteiner
Influential Stallions in pedigree: VAS Y DONC, ROYAL CHESNUT, CHERBOURG, CONQUERANT, KAPIRAT, NORMAND, PLEDGE, SEDUCTEUR, LANDESSOHN, ACHILL, MALCOLM, HANNIBAL, RUBICO, FLICK, WITTELSBACHER, CICERO, LANDGRAF, NORFOLK, SCHLÜTTER, ZERNEBOG
Nimmerdor: KWPN
Influential Stallions in pedigree: PLEDGE, SEDUCTEUR, LANDESSOHN, ACHILL, MALCOLM, HANNIBAL, RUBICO, FLICK, RUTHARD, WITTELSBACHER, CICERO, LANDGRAF, NORFOLK, SCHLÜTTER, ZERNEBOG
This is the list of foundation stallions that are seen at the beginning of the pedigree, so over 100 -150 years ago. They are very similar even though the examples come from different registries and the mares in the pedigree were most likely unique to the region. All though, the mares sons would go on to influence other regions. The different registries are not as segregated as one would assume. Although they did have different selection processes and paradigms, they are once again sharing more and more by accepting outside stallions.
Thank you stoicfish!
My impression of the whole system is that there is a lot of snobbery and self righteousness involved. CWHBA people look down on CSH people as a ‘type’ rather than a breed registry since CSH does not have the same pedigree requirements as CWHBA. CSH people feel that CWHBA people are outside the laws of the pedigree act and are not creating a uniquely Canadian breed. The Hanoverian people feel superior to everyone because they feel their inspection criteria is more stringent and as such their horses are better quality. I think they also like the ‘prestige’ of the European connection.
I also get the impression that Hanoverian people feel that their inspectors are better qualified than the CSH or CWHBA ones, so a mare getting a 7 from a CWHBA inspector would likely not get as high of a score at a Hanoverian inspector. I’ve heard the same from CSH/CWHBA people, that the CWHBA/CSH inspectors are too generous with scores.
There is also the case where someone feels like their horses were not adequately appreciated by one registry so they defect to another and then spend all of their time defaming their former registry and extolling the virtues of the new one. It seems like a few years ago a lot of people went to RSPI and started holding their own inspections. Then there are the people who equate RSPI as one step above american warmblood.
It all seems like nomenclature to me. Any system which inspects and offers a means of tracking registrations and pedigrees provides the same service to the breeder and to the buyer who wants a horse with papers. The reality is that once a horse is under saddle, the papers matter very little to most people. It is only in the micro world of breeders that this becomes a hot topic. I think that most breeders like to tell themselves that their horse is more appreciated due to their registry of choice (or that their competitors horses are at a disadvantage because of their registry choice) but I haven’t seen this in practice much with buying and selling horses. A lot of the show horses have papers that were ‘lost’ or never even applied for.
I personally have had mares inspected CWHBA since it was convenient and local to me at the time (one of those mares was initially registered CSH before I bought her) but I may switch to Hanoverian this year just since the inspection is closer to me and both of the foals are by Hanoverian stallions, as is my mare.
At the inspections I’ve attended there were ALWAYS some people who felt put out that their mare did not get the score they felt she deserved or those few who disagreed with a mare who got a too high score. Sometimes there is one wonderful high scoring mare that every single person thought was fabulous, that is nice.
It’s all really just names, and once the horse is performing it matters very little. People can call it anything they want, and they do. I see the same horse being called multiple things all the time depending on what impression they are trying to give.
Why do people support 10 foreign Sport and Warmblood registries when they could be registering those horses with our domestic studbooks.
Do you honestly want to know?
