Canadian Warmblood Only Registered 1 horse in 2014?

[Horizon]

In Canada we have two very similar warmblood breeding registries - Canadian Warmblood and Canadian Sport Horse.

I was browsing the CLRC website and noticed that Canadian Warmblood only registered ONE purebred animal. The rest were all crossbreds (see page 35 of the link below)

http://www.clrc.ca/2014%20Annual%20Report%20for%20Internet.pdf

If Canadian Warmblood is only registering 1 true warmblood a year, what is the point of their registry? Seems like they are no different than the Canadian Sport Horse Association (which registered 267 animals in 2014.)

[CHT]

I wonder what classifies the horse as purebred? I think as a relatively new registry, it may just take time before they have stock that is considered “pure”.

[Foxtrot_s]

Oh my! There was much to-ing and fro-ing for many years…both seem redundant to me. There are enough registries out there already, registries that register horses with all the same bloodlines. We have inspectinos up here all the time with European inspectors or American inspectors. Seems enough.

[cherham]

Actually you are right Horizon. If you look at the actual pedigree of a Canadian Sport Horse and a Canadian Warmblood you will notice a lot of overlap. I have been breeding CSH’s for almost 40 years. Every one of my horses has European warmblood in them. We started breeding to Hanoverian stallions 30 plus years ago when no such horse breed was really known in Canada. Breeding by AI was unheard of…but there were the few out there even then. And Trak’s as well.

I cannot account for the discrepancy in the number of actual registrations though between the organizations. I know that many of my fellow CSH breeders are starting to ramp up again now that the market seems to be improving.

[melhorse]

I think most people use that registry so they can call anything a wamblood. A 1/8th Hanoverian is called warmblood in Canada and it is embarrassing

[Foxtrot_s]

Cherham - You will remember Boraks (Trak) - I had a foal by him back in the day and registered her CSH. I used to go on the inspections with my friend Sue Mills (we are in B.C.) Warmbloods were quite the new thing here then
and how they have changed since then.

[Denzel]

I would also be curious to know what the difference is between a “purebred” and a “partbred” for their purposes. To my knowledge, the creation of the Canadian Warmblood registry is more a factor of the lack of prominent Canadian chapters of the European registries.

[vineyridge]

Doesn’t that just show that owners of Canadian Warmblood mares are not breeding to Canadian Warmblood stallions but to stallions in other registries, which is probably the result of AI.

[stoicfish]

Someone might step in with a better explanation but here is one for now.

This Stallion stands at Spruce Meadows and is an approved Hanoverian Stallion (and winner of the stallion test).
http://www.clrc.ca/cgi-bin/pedigree.cgi?_breedcode=WC&_countrycode=CAN&_regnumberprefix=APPR&_regnumber=3185&_regnumbersuffix=&_association=27

If you go to the “other information” section you will see

“58.7891% European Warmblood born on or prior to 1950”

According to the Pedigree act of Canada, you must identify ALL (imagine the work) of the horses in the pedigree and determine if they trace back to the named founding members of Warmblood breed.
So most important WB horses are identified and listed but Tb and Traks are not included as they are separate breeds already under the act. The percentage is the % of animals in the pedigree that are traditional WB and NOT Tb or Trak.

Since anyone that knows about Wb’s is aware of the usual 20-50% Tb blood, it is not surprising that there is only 1 “purebred”.

I think most people use that registry so they can call anything a wamblood. A 1/8th Hanoverian is called warmblood in Canada and it is embarrassing

This is really insulting. And ignorant…which should be embarrassing for you.

Most breeders around here, which make up the majority of CW Wb registered horses in Canada are breeding some very nice animals. Like very nice.

http://www.canadianwarmbloods.com/reg-vs-studbook.php This Book system was taken from the Hanoverian system. If you can figure it out, you will see that a 1/8 Hanoverian would be hard to believe as the COP would be at least 50% WB. As you go up the books, the % increases with each generation. And while the European version in the last 10 years have changed their system, some still issue COP’s.
Once again, you’re really insulting and ignorant (did I mention ignorant?) to suggest that the majority of breeders that use CW are doing so only to register a 1/8th animal (which is practically impossible).

[stoicfish]

And Canadian Sport Horse is an evolving breed, so if you look at their page, you do not see purebred or other as they have no identified founding stock (horses that are the founding members of a breed). While I do not think they register just anything, they certainly have a much wider definition, “sport horse”. In other words, anything they accept is under the one heading. And I would guess that they have a much greater range of types and breeds they accept. Which is no disrespect to any one breeder.
Ironically that is the reason they do have two separate registries, the Wb wanted to focus on WB’s and Sport horse wanted to focus on animals that succeeded in Sport.

CRITERIA & GUIDELINES FOR MARE INSPECTION:

The Canadian Sport Horse Association has been inspecting horses for breed improvement since its incorporation in 1933. Canadian Sport Horse breeders, through the use of Thoroughbreds and warmbloods from other sport horse registries, along with established Canadian Sport Horse lines, strive to produce sound, sensible, athletic performers. Horses should be of sport horse type; defined as a horse that is built to succeed in the hunter, jumper, dressage or eventing disciplines. They are preferably between 16.0 and 17.0 hands high at maturity with a minimum of 8" cannon bone circumference and 72" heart girth. Smaller horses will be considered if other attributes are above average; e.g.: movement, quality, substance or verifiable performance record. Qualities looked for are good body depth and substance and a well-defined head with large, expressive eyes. Joints should be strong and clean with knees and hocks low to the ground and pasterns well angled with appropriate length. The neck should be well set on with suitable length, withers well defined with a long, sloping shoulder and a smooth, strong top-line. Hindquarters should be strong and well rounded and able to provide balance and impulsion. The movement in all gaits is very important and should be sequentially correct, straight, balanced, ground covering and have impulsion. Rounding out the ideal sport horse mare is a horse with good character, intelligence, and courage, and a feminine and athletic presence that leaves a good impression on the observer.

[vandenbrink]

[QUOTE=melhorse;8218998]
I think most people use that registry so they can call anything a wamblood. A 1/8th Hanoverian is called warmblood in Canada and it is embarrassing :)[/QUOTE]

wow… again…such an ignorant comment. a 1/8th warmblood is a 1/8th warmblood of course…Not actually a warmblood.

A 3/4 TB can be registered a Germany with the German Hanoverian Verband (actual example…FRH Butts Abraxxas). From my interpretation of the rules, that horse would NOT be eligible for Canadian Warmblood papers because it doesn’t meet the 1 Warmblood parent rule. Can we then say Canadian Warmblood clearly has FAR more stringent registration rules…We have a studbook that is very closely overseen by our Federal Government. We have to track everything back to original WB foundation stock. This is a rather laborious and costly process, but it means if it’s not a warmblood, it’s not called a warmblood.

Grrrr…

I don’t mind a good debate, but really am bothered by ignorant people taking pot shots at an organization they clearly have not bothered to read up on.

[vandenbrink]

[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;8218995]
Oh my! There was much to-ing and fro-ing for many years…both seem redundant to me. There are enough registries out there already, registries that register horses with all the same bloodlines. We have inspectinos up here all the time with European inspectors or American inspectors. Seems enough.[/QUOTE]

You are absolutely right Foxtrot. I think consolidation makes sense for sure…of all studbooks…GOV, German Hanovarian, American Hanoverian, ISR/Old, RPSI, Westfalen, Selle Francais, Belgian WB, Belgian Sporthorse, Zangersheide,…and I could go on. All those organizations have a base outside Canada but do business in Canada and help to divide our industry into very small groups. This just does not happen in Europe. Fewer stronger larger studbooks would make a LOT more sense.

[vandenbrink]

[QUOTE=vandenbrink;8219253]
A 3/4 TB can be registered a Germany with the German Hanoverian Verband (actual example…FRH Butts Abraxxas). [/QUOTE]

OOPS …correction. I should have dug a little deeper before I posted. I’m surprised I haven’t been corrected yet.

The Hanoverian in my example that is registered with the German Verband is
99.61 TB. Those Germans calling those horses with 0.39 percent Warmblood blood…warmbloods. The nerve http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/411166

[Donella]

The Canadian Warmblood mare book system is not the same as the Hanoverian Verband’s as someone else mentioned. It is actually not similar at all.

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=Donella;8219289]
The Canadian Warmblood mare book system is not the same as the Hanoverian Verband’s as someone else mentioned. It is actually not similar at all.[/QUOTE]

Actually it is. You must remember that they created that system 20 years ago. How long ago did you register your first Hanoverian?
If you look back, you will see that the books were set up to mimic the Hanoverian system at that time.
The comparison now
https://hanoverian.org/studbook-placement/
http://www.canadianwarmbloods.com/reg-vs-studbook.php
http://en.hannoveraner.com/home/breeding/mares/studbook-inspection/sections/

They all have three books, the Main, Studbook (or Mare) and Pre. The scores are similar and the entries are similar except that the CW will not accept Tb into the Main Book. If you look at the qualifications of the German and the Canadian, you see 4 gens in the German Han, and in CW is must be a Main Mare from a recognized registry.

To get into the (German) Studbook or Mare (same idea) you need

. Three generations of recognized ancestry must be proved. The dam must have been either a Main-Studbook mare or a studbook-mare or a Pre-Studbook I-mare.

If you work up the CW books…you also have 3 gens at the same point, hence the Pre-stud(mare) l and ll.
They used to have a COP (in CW it is Aux)
and you notice the term Pre-Studbook I (CW has Pre-Mare Book I).

[Manni01]

[QUOTE=vandenbrink;8219253]
wow… again…such an ignorant comment. a 1/8th warmblood is a 1/8th warmblood of course…Not actually a warmblood.

A 3/4 TB can be registered a Germany with the German Hanoverian Verband (actual example…FRH Butts Abraxxas). From my interpretation of the rules, that horse would NOT be eligible for Canadian Warmblood papers because it doesn’t meet the 1 Warmblood parent rule. Can we then say Canadian Warmblood clearly has FAR more stringent registration rules…We have a studbook that is very closely overseen by our Federal Government. We have to track everything back to original WB foundation stock. This is a rather laborious and costly process, but it means if it’s not a warmblood, it’s not called a warmblood.

Grrrr…

I don’t mind a good debate, but really am bothered by ignorant people taking pot shots at an organization they clearly have not bothered to read up on.[/QUOTE]

Not sure if it was mentioned here, but in Hannover they also breed Hannovarian Cross Racehorses (not sure if I translated that right) Those are horses with a very high percentage of TB but still branded Hanoverian. I assume some of those are also used for eventing, but originally they were bred for racing. Its something unique that a Warmblood registry breeds and registers Racehorses
http://www.hannoveraner.com/hannoveraner-verband/zucht/philosophie/zuchtziel/zuchtprogramm/
sorry, did not find an english link. this one is only in German

[Donella]

Stoic, I have not been breeding Hanoverians for 20 years but when was the last time you registered a horse with the Hanoverian Verband? Have you breeding Hanoverians for the last 20 years??

I think what sets HV apart from many registries is that it’s selection of outside mares and the placement of them into the studbook scheme is quite unique. Outside mares need to be of above average quality (7 or greater) in which case they are put into the main studbook (assuming pedigree is acceptable). Mares who are not of this quality are simply rejected for entry into any book. I believe AHS puts full blood mares into the studbook but again they must score a 7 or better. It is not the case that outside mares are placed in a variety of books according to pedigree/quality. Most other studbooks, CW included, place outside mares into one of a number of books based on quality and pedigree or a combination of both.

So yes, both HV and CW have more than one mare book. But this is the case for all warmblood registries. Aside from that I don’t see any indication of the CW book scheme being modeled after the HV one…maybe I missing something?

[stoicfish]

Donella, you are missing the point of my question. Say it was 5 or 6 years ago that you first registered a Hanoverian, it would also probably be the first time you really took interest in how the books worked. But the CW used the version from over 20 years ago. The Hanoverian Verband has changed a bit in that time and that was my point.

Secondly, there is not 5 books.
There is 2 - the Main Mare Book(equal to the Main Stud Book) and the Mare book (equal to the Stud book). Just replace the word Stud with Mare, Stud had male connotations in NA so it would be confusing.
And just like the Verband there is also a Pre-Studbook I (replace Mare with Stud again).
Right from the German Verband site:

The Hanoverian Studbook is subdivided in two sections:

1. Main-Studbook (Symbol H)
2. Studbook (Symbol S)
3. Pre-Studbook I (Symbol V)

They list 3 but it is really 2 books and a pre books. If you notice they put a l after the Pre-Stud book as I am fairly sure there was a “ll” at one point if there isn’t still? (anyone in Germany can answer that?)

They also handed out COP or in the case of CW, - Aux papers. These papers clearly state that the horse is NOT in the mare books or Pre-mare books. They are the same as a COP and the qualifications are the same, mother is not an inspected mare and sire is a WB (or Hanoverian).
One difference in CW and American Society that the mare with AUX papers may be bred back to a WB and the resulting filly (who is 3/4 WB at that point) may be eligible for the Pre Book ll. Bred back again, to a full WB stallion, the next generation goes to the Pre Book l (7/8 or 87%).

This is 3 generations, and if you remember from the Verband:

To be entered in the Studbook the requirements are:

a. Three generations of recognized ancestry must be proved. The dam must have been either a Main-Studbook mare or a studbook-mare or a Pre-Studbook I-mare.

It is the same qualifications to be entered in the Stud Book (Mare Book) and this is because they used the Verband books as the template.

Look, I get your opinions on CW and understand why you do not like the comparison. And saying they used the Hanoverian system does not make it all equal otherwise. It is simply a function of using the criteria to place horses in the books.

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=Donella;8219434]
Stoic, I have not been breeding Hanoverians for 20 years but when was the last time you registered a horse with the Hanoverian Verband? Have you breeding Hanoverians for the last 20 years??

I think what sets HV apart from many registries is that it’s selection of outside mares and the placement of them into the studbook scheme is quite unique. Outside mares need to be of above average quality (7 or greater) in which case they are put into the main studbook (assuming pedigree is acceptable). Mares who are not of this quality are simply rejected for entry into any book. I believe AHS puts full blood mares into the studbook but again they must score a 7 or better. It is not the case that outside mares are placed in a variety of books according to pedigree/quality. Most other studbooks, CW included, place outside mares into one of a number of books based on quality and pedigree or a combination of both.

So yes, both HV and CW have more than one mare book. But this is the case for all warmblood registries. Aside from that I don’t see any indication of the CW book scheme being modeled after the HV one…maybe I missing something?[/QUOTE]

Outside mares (lets pick on a Qh ) are eligible for inspection but are not placed in a book. The foal will be an AUX no matter what. So that 1/2 QH and 1/2 Wb has Aux papers. That is the highest it can go.
The next gen can go to P2 and that is it. It can’t be in the Mare or Main Mare, regardless of scores and because of the pedigree. Next is P1, and still not in the Mare book.

So no, they can not go into a number of books, only the book they are eligible for and that eligibility is the same as the Verbands.
And the Verband has the same qualifications. 3 known generations for Stud Book (Mare Book).

And CW will not put a Tb into the Mare books regardless of the score, they are only eligible for P2. Their offspring are only eligible for P1 regardless of the scores. So there are actually harder on Tb’s and do not let them into the Mare books regardless of scores. This may be part in due to the Pedigree Act.

[Donella]

My point is that names of books don’t really mean much. What matters, and what shapes a registry/breed is the selection criteria ie how a registry decides to fill these books. There are five book for CWB and I say that because an Aux book mare (lowest book) CAN and DOES contribute genetically to the CWB breed. Non Hanoverian/outside mares that are lacking in quality/pedigree simply will never influence or contribute to the breed genetically as they are not accepted in any book. So while some books may have the same names (don’t all registries have a “main” mare or stud book etc?) the criteria to be placed in these books is not similar.

It’s not a matter of me “disliking” the comparison…I just don’t see much of one. Many very successful registries have a more open policy, much like CW, with multiple books and outside mares being placed in accordance with quality/pedigree. KWPN comes to mind (pretty much #1 studbook in the world right now), GOV etc. CW does get poo poo’ed unfairly for what seems to be a common selection criteria so I can understand CW people being defensive about it.