Cancara coming to the U.S.!

[_Tradewind]

I want to announce some exciting news for COTH breeders; Cancara, a son of Cassini I, will be standing at Foxfire Farm for 2013! Karen has made an agreement with the Holsteiner Verband to bring this lovely Holsteiner (and Zangersheide approved) stallion to North America so he will be available by fresh semen to breeders here. I am not affiliated with Foxfire, I just had the opportunity to attend the Holsteiner stallion korung in Neumunster with Karen Reid of Foxfire Farm earlier this month, and when I found out she was importing this exciting young stallion, I wanted to share!

Cancara is 17.1 with tremendous scope, receiving a 10 for jumping at his stallion test! Apparently, he also has an exceptional mind with fantastic rideability. He also comes from stamm 162, the same mother line as Carthago. Check out his video and pedigree:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtube_gdata_player&v=TPqDadbj7Eg&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DTPqDadbj7Eg%26feature%3Dyoutube_gdata_player

http://www.horsetelex.com//horses/pedigree/160606

[DownYonder]

Very cool! I assume he would best be used with mares with not much of the C-lines in their pedigrees - correct?

[_Tradewind]

[QUOTE=DownYonder;6673693]
Very cool! I assume he would best be used with mares with not much of the C-lines in their pedigrees - correct?[/QUOTE]

I would ask Karen or one of the more knowledgeable Holsteiner experts regarding which type of mare suits him better. He does have Capitol up close so I would avoid a Capitol-bred mare (as Capitol has a reputation for throwing weak toplines, and it is therefore commonly advised to avoid doubling up on Capitol). He has multiple crosses to Corde (4, I believe), but not so close up, and as far as I know there is not the same concern with linebreeding to Corde, so I guess it really depends which C-line you are referring to.

[EquineLVR]

Thats awesome!! He looks amazing!

[HorsesforFun]

Great news for Cancara! Did Karen happen to mention any new frozen stallions that would be here for the spring?

[_Tradewind]

[QUOTE=HorsesforFun;6674311]
Great news for Cancara! Did Karen happen to mention any new frozen stallions that would be here for the spring?[/QUOTE]

Yes, she did, but I’ve forgotten most of them already! I know she is going to be getting Centurion and Baracuda semen (I don’t remember if she had him already or if he’s new?), and she still has a supply of Cormint and Connor. I’ll have to ask her again; those were the ones I remember because they are the stallions I was most interested in.

[Gayle_in_Oregon]

[QUOTE=Tradewind;6673727]
I would ask Karen or one of the more knowledgeable Holsteiner experts regarding which type of mare suits him better. He does have Capitol up close so I would avoid a Capitol-bred mare (as Capitol has a reputation for throwing weak toplines, and it is therefore commonly advised to avoid doubling up on Capitol). He has multiple crosses to Corde (4, I believe), but not so close up, and as far as I know there is not the same concern with linebreeding to Corde, so I guess it really depends which C-line you are referring to.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for sharing this. I have been looking and looking for more video, photos and his bonits to get more of an idea of his conformation. He looks pretty darn good to me but could be a little more level in the back…is that what you mean by weak topline?

[Gayle_in_Oregon]

[QUOTE=Tradewind;6673727]
I would ask Karen or one of the more knowledgeable Holsteiner experts regarding which type of mare suits him better. He does have Capitol up close so I would avoid a Capitol-bred mare (as Capitol has a reputation for throwing weak toplines, and it is therefore commonly advised to avoid doubling up on Capitol). He has multiple crosses to Corde (4, I believe), but not so close up, and as far as I know there is not the same concern with linebreeding to Corde, so I guess it really depends which C-line you are referring to.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for sharing this. I have been looking and looking for more video, photos and his bonits to get more of an idea of his conformation. He looks pretty darn good to me but could be a little more level in the back…is that what you mean by weak topline?

[_Tradewind]

[QUOTE=Gayle in Oregon;6676383]
Thanks for sharing this. I have been looking and looking for more video, photos and his bonits to get more of an idea of his conformation. He looks pretty darn good to me but could be a little more level in the back…is that what you mean by weak topline?[/QUOTE]

I’m not sure what Cancara himself throws as I have not seen any of his offspring in person, but Holsteiner breeders will tell you that Capitol was known for throwing weak toplines in his offspring (find a picture of Capitol himself and that might not be such a surprise!). That is why you will rarely see Capitol doubled up in a pedigree; therefore, it isn’t so much a comment about Cancara himself, but rather just something one should be aware if they have a mare with Capitol in her pedigree. (There are exceptions, as there was a Connor son with double Capitol approved in Neumunster this year; it depends on the characteristics of the mare you are breeding, of course.)

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Tradewind;6682697]
I’m not sure what Cancara himself throws as I have not seen any of his offspring in person, but Holsteiner breeders will tell you that Capitol was known for throwing weak toplines in his offspring (find a picture of Capitol himself and that might not be such a surprise!). That is why you will rarely see Capitol doubled up in a pedigree; therefore, it isn’t so much a comment about Cancara himself, but rather just something one should be aware if they have a mare with Capitol in her pedigree. (There are exceptions, as there was a Connor son with double Capitol approved in Neumunster this year; it depends on the characteristics of the mare you are breeding, of course.)[/QUOTE]

“Rarely see Capitol doubled in a pedigree” ? My dear , you have not been looking very closely. Out of 79 stallions that you saw in Nuemunster 3 weeks ago…20 of them were double Capitol. Cancara himself is double Capitol. Lets not spread mis-information.

The most recent winner in your own country at Spruce Meadows was Cabrio by Cassini I / Calato.

double Capitol breeding has been going on for years now. This is nothing new.

[Bayhawk]

Real time info on Cancara from his 2011 breeding indices.

He sired 444 foals. Type -121 Movement - 120 index - 121

He had 14 daughters come for entry into the studbook.

Type - 117 topline- 110 , FL 128 , HL 122 , Correctness of gait - 127 , brilliance and impulsion 127 Index : 122

He had 11 daughters do the MPT

walk - 104 , trot 105 , canter 110 , rideability 124 , free jumping 116…index : 116

[_Tradewind]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;6682945]
“Rarely see Capitol doubled in a pedigree” ? My dear , you have not been looking very closely. Out of 79 stallions that you saw in Nuemunster 3 weeks ago…20 of them were double Capitol. Cancara himself is double Capitol. Lets not spread mis-information.

The most recent winner in your own country at Spruce Meadows was Cabrio by Cassini I / Calato.

double Capitol breeding has been going on for years now. This is nothing new.[/QUOTE]

My apologies, Bayhawk. As I’ve said, I’m no expert and it would be best to consult those more knowledgeable than myself, I am still learning. I’m surprised you did not weigh in on this topic as you seem to be the resident Holsteiner breeding expert on this forum. I think, though, as with any linebreeding, one must consider the mare in front of them.

You have said yourself that linebreeding to Landgraf is a mistake, for example, yet there are many examples of Holsteiners line bred to Landgraf; as Landgraf has been known to produce hind end issues, if I’m not mistaken, one would only consider linebreeding to a mare with good hind end conformation (and who produces this as well), correct? I was suggesting that the same is true for Capitol: linebreeding to a Capitol-bred mare with a weak topline would be unwise. Also, of all the stallions at Neumunster, there were actually only 8 with double Capitol in the first 4 generations. Obviously it is done, but rarely up close. Would you not argue that this is true? Given the prevalence of Capitol blood in Holstein, there is obviously a reason one does not see more of this done (compared to the linebreeding to Corde, for example).

Then again, sometimes we are all incorrect when it comes to the importance of careful linebreeding: did you not say yourself that there was no way the (approved and premium) Cantoblanco son, Cantulos, would be approved because of too much inbreeding in his pedigree? Even the best can get it wrong!

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Tradewind;6683003]
My apologies, Bayhawk. As I’ve said, I’m no expert and it would be best to consult those more knowledgeable than myself, I am still learning. I’m surprised you did not weigh in on this topic as you seem to be the resident Holsteiner breeding expert on this forum. I think, though, as with any linebreeding, one must consider the mare in front of them.

You have said yourself that linebreeding to Landgraf is a mistake, for example, yet there are many examples of Holsteiners line bred to Landgraf; as Landgraf has been known to produce hind end issues, if I’m not mistaken, one would only consider linebreeding to a mare with good hind end conformation (and who produces this as well), correct? I was suggesting that the same is true for Capitol: linebreeding to a Capitol-bred mare with a weak topline would be unwise. Also, of all the stallions at Neumunster, there were actually only 8 with double Capitol in the first 4 generations. Obviously it is done, but rarely up close. Would you not argue that this is true? Given the prevalence of Capitol blood in Holstein, there is obviously a reason one does not see more of this done (compared to the linebreeding to Corde, for example).

Then again, sometimes we are all incorrect when it comes to the importance of careful linebreeding: did you not say yourself that there was no way the (approved and premium) Cantoblanco son, Cantulos, would be approved because of too much inbreeding in his pedigree? Even the best can get it wrong! ;)[/QUOTE]

Tradewind …you have got to quit spreading mis-information. I have NEVER said linebreeding to Landgraf is a mistake. I said too much Landgraf with a mare with bad hind legs is a mistake.

I also never said anything about Cantolus not being approved. I said his pedigree was incest and they would likely never breed with him. I also said he must be really nice or he wouldn’t have been selected. I was right.he was a premium stallion. Again , please stop spreading mis-information.

Now you are adding caveats to your “double Capitol rarely seen” quote. You said it was rarely seen…I showed that you were wrong. It is VERY often double up close as with Cabrio who is Cassini I / Calato.

I know you are excited returning from your first Stallion approvals but lets not spread mis-information.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Tradewind;6683003]
My apologies, Bayhawk. As I’ve said, I’m no expert and it would be best to consult those more knowledgeable than myself, I am still learning. I’m surprised you did not weigh in on this topic as you seem to be the resident Holsteiner breeding expert on this forum. I think, though, as with any linebreeding, one must consider the mare in front of them.

You have said yourself that linebreeding to Landgraf is a mistake, for example, yet there are many examples of Holsteiners line bred to Landgraf; as Landgraf has been known to produce hind end issues, if I’m not mistaken, one would only consider linebreeding to a mare with good hind end conformation (and who produces this as well), correct? I was suggesting that the same is true for Capitol: linebreeding to a Capitol-bred mare with a weak topline would be unwise. Also, of all the stallions at Neumunster, there were actually only 8 with double Capitol in the first 4 generations. Obviously it is done, but rarely up close. Would you not argue that this is true? Given the prevalence of Capitol blood in Holstein, there is obviously a reason one does not see more of this done (compared to the linebreeding to Corde, for example).

Then again, sometimes we are all incorrect when it comes to the importance of careful linebreeding: did you not say yourself that there was no way the (approved and premium) Cantoblanco son, Cantulos, would be approved because of too much inbreeding in his pedigree? Even the best can get it wrong! ;)[/QUOTE]

Tradewind …you have got to quit spreading mis-information. I have NEVER said linebreeding to Landgraf is a mistake. I said too much Landgraf with a mare with bad hind legs is a mistake.

I also never said anything about Cantolus not being approved. I said his pedigree was incest and they would likely never breed with him. I also said he must be really nice or he wouldn’t have been selected. I was right.he was a premium stallion. Again , please stop spreading mis-information.

Now you are adding caveats to your “double Capitol rarely seen” quote. You said it was rarely seen…I showed that you were wrong. It is VERY often double up close as with Cabrio who is Cassini I / Calato.

I know you are excited returning from your first Stallion approvals but lets not spread mis-information.

[_Tradewind]

I do not want to get into a fight with you Bayhawk, particularly as there is no question you are more knowledgeable than I about Holsteiner breeding and I very much appreciate your insight on the subject. However, (I don’t want to go back and look for posts of yours wherein you criticize doubling up on Landgraf, but…) here is a post of yours from yesterday:

"The grandfather Loutano is inbred to Landgraf. He is Landgraf / Calypso/Landgraf . Then you have Latino and Lord and then another Landgraf from your mare.

People who say they wouldn’t hesitate to breed this way or that way don’t have to raise , train and sell your horse either.Just my 2 cents…"

This sounds EXACTLY like you are against multiple crosses to Landgraf. You don’t say anything here about caveats such as “this is only true if your mare has poor hind end conformation” (even though I genuinely believe that is your opinion). I’m not sure why it failed to come across as such, but I believe we are both in agreement that the latter is the case, ie. linebreeding is only problematic in mares with weaknesses that have a good chance of being reproduced through certain linebreeding. (And based on the above post of yours which I quoted, you can’t really criticize me for placing a caveat on my statement that I had not mentioned, as you have clearly done the same. I’m just trying to point out that it is rather amusing when the pot calls the kettle black. )

As for the Cantoblanco son, it’s not really worth arguing about, but you did not say “I will not breed to this”, you said, “THEY will not breed this”. I am under the impression that a stallion would not have been approved (and made premium, no less) had Dr. Nissen and colleagues not thought he was worth breeding to. I don’t really see how you can argue against this statement. You thought they would approve him and then never breed him? This seems like a poor business model to me; breeders in Holstein are smarter than that.

I would love to hear your thoughts on Cancara, honestly. You can certainly provide more informed insight for potential breeders than I can.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Tradewind;6683093]
I do not want to get into a fight with you Bayhawk, particularly as there is no question you are more knowledgeable than I about Holsteiner breeding and I very much appreciate your insight on the subject. However, (I don’t want to go back and look for posts of yours wherein you criticize doubling up on Landgraf, but…) here is a post of yours from yesterday:

"The grandfather Loutano is inbred to Landgraf. He is Landgraf / Calypso/Landgraf . Then you have Latino and Lord and then another Landgraf from your mare.

People who say they wouldn’t hesitate to breed this way or that way don’t have to raise , train and sell your horse either.Just my 2 cents…"

This sounds EXACTLY like you are against multiple crosses to Landgraf. You don’t say anything here about caveats such as “this is only true if your mare has poor hind end conformation” (even though I genuinely believe that is your opinion). I’m not sure why it failed to come across as such, but I believe we are both in agreement that the latter is the case, ie. linebreeding is only problematic in mares with weaknesses that have a good chance of being reproduced through certain linebreeding. (And based on the above post of yours which I quoted, you can’t really criticize me for placing a caveat on my statement that I had not mentioned, as you have clearly done the same. I’m just trying to point out that it is rather amusing when the pot calls the kettle black. )

As for the Cantoblanco son, it’s not really worth arguing about, but you did not say “I will not breed to this”, you said, “THEY will not breed this”. I am under the impression that a stallion would not have been approved (and made premium, no less) had Dr. Nissen and colleagues not thought he was worth breeding to. I don’t really see how you can argue against this statement. You thought they would approve him and then never breed him? This seems like a poor business model to me; breeders in Holstein are smarter than that.

I would love to hear your thoughts on Cancara, honestly. You can certainly provide more informed insight for potential breeders than I can.[/QUOTE]

again , you mis-read the post. The question was not about Landgraf…it was about Ladykiller xx. Hence the addition of Latino and Lord in my response.

you have alot to learn about the Holstein approvals. They approve stallions every year that they have no intentions of ever breeding to. They approve some for other countries to breed with and to make money in the auction. I certainly would never breed with Cantolus (unless I had a total outcross mare) and I am certain he will get next to no mares from breeders in Holstein should he be available. His entire pedigree is the same with the exception of the very top line coming from Canto.

I think folks should make their own determinations regarding Cancara. I provided a little help with the indices and folks can contact breeders who have used him.