Can't Get Close Enough to the Front of the Saddle

[GoForAGallop]

I’m saddle shopping right now, and this is an issue that I continually struggle with, and only in my dressage saddles. I never feel like I am close enough to the front of the saddle, and feel like I need to grab the pommel and scoot myself forward. I do have trouble getting my leg behind me, as in I have to consciously think about it.

This has occurred with 10+ well balanced, fitted saddles. So not one off case.

What does it mean? Do I need a forward balance saddle? (I had a County Competitor stamped Forward Balance but sadly only rode in it for a week before deciding the flap was too long, and can’t remember if I had this issue.) Stirrup bars set further back?

My instructor and several big name clinicians haven’t said anything (except about pushing my leg further back) about it, so it’s primarily something that I’m feeling vs something that’s visible to the naked eye.

[CenteredRiding]

What is conformation of the horse? On my high-withered guy, others are always setting the saddle too far forward on his shoulders, resulting in saddle sloping backwards and leg dropping inch behind block. He has huge shoulders. In order to set the saddle far enough back to really let him use those shoulders, it looks like it’s too far back, since his back is short.

(Boy, but once it’s back where it should be he feels great. Wonderful long swinging stride.)

[csaper58]

Have you tried sitting in a saddle with adjustable stirrup bars?

[merrygoround]

It’s difficult to assess without a picture. But have you considered riding with more of a bend in your knee? That sometimes allows the upper leg to hang straight down, which would give you a feeling of being more forward in the saddle.

[mvp]

I ride in flat, open-seated dressage saddles for this reason. I love an old, J. P. Giacomini saddle that I have. It has that open seat that Andy Foster (the saddle maker for Giacomini and Lauriche) builds. But this saddle also has stirrup bars hung well back. It looks weird and feels great; I am “kneeling” as I ride. I also ride in Stubben Tristan-type saddles. You can sit right up close to the withers in those.

IMO, riders have come to want big saddles that lock them into place via big blocks in front, a deep bucket seat and a tall cantle. That seems to mean that the rider sits farther back, well behind the horse’s center of gravity. Sitting up closer to the withers makes the ride smoother and the seat/balance aids so much more effective for the horse!

Also, I think the rider has to commit to good posture, with the core engaged and riding with the chest raised and the front to the body out. If you round your shoulders or slump, that’s your part in making a saddle feel like you’re sliding back.

Mainly, however, I think that buying a saddle with a deep seat and a seat that’s a little big will cause the rider to slide back into the deepest part of the seat, no matter what.

[GoForAGallop]

To address:

[QUOTE=CenteredRiding;8808140]
What is conformation of the horse? On my high-withered guy, others are always setting the saddle too far forward on his shoulders, resulting in saddle sloping backwards and leg dropping inch behind block. [/QUOTE]

It definitely does have a little bit to do with the horse himself, as I don’t have this problem with my pony. But the saddles are placed correctly, as he’s got giant shoulders that I keep things away from. Verified by several independent fitters, etc.

@csaper58;8808323

Have you tried sitting in a saddle with adjustable stirrup bars?

I had a Cardanel with adjustable stirrup bars hoping to solve this issue, but sadly found the bulk of them so damn painful that I put less than ~5 rides in the saddle. I did fiddle around with them a bit, but because they hurt so badly, I can’t say I was riding my best! :lol:

@merrygoround;8808355

It’s difficult to assess without a picture. But have you considered riding with more of a bend in your knee? That sometimes allows the upper leg to hang straight down, which would give you a feeling of being more forward in the saddle.

I do ride with a bit of a bend: link

I am aware that this particular saddle is a bit too small for me (It was purchased for the 13.2 pony who has very limited real estate!), but is actually the saddle I feel the most secure in because of it…my bum keeps me pushed forward. You can see that my leg could be a bit further back, although the clinician I was riding with at the time (Liz Austin) was not particularly bothered by that. I do not have a particularly great conformation for dressage, so everything will not always be picture perfect. :lol:

[QUOTE=mvp;8808384]I ride in flat, open-seated dressage saddles for this reason. (snip) also ride in Stubben Tristan-type saddles. You can sit right up close to the withers in those.

IMO, riders have come to want big saddles that lock them into place via big blocks in front, a deep bucket seat and a tall cantle. That seems to mean that the rider sits farther back, well behind the horse’s center of gravity. Sitting up closer to the withers makes the ride smoother and the seat/balance aids so much more effective for the horse!

Also, I think the rider has to commit to good posture, with the core engaged and riding with the chest raised and the front to the body out. If you round your shoulders or slump, that’s your part in making a saddle feel like you’re sliding back.[/QUOTE]

This has occurred in 10+ saddles, everything from the classic old Kieffer Weins to my current Thornhill Pro-Trainer and my Stubben Juventus. I have chubby thighs and tend to ride most comfortably with a shorter stirrup, so actually am not a fan of big blocks and tend to avoid saddles with them.

I have not had the opportunity to try one of the very French saddles, as up until this point in my riding career they were frequently out of my price range. (I also need a short flap, which complicates the saddle buying process…the flap in the photo is 13" and I do not have a lot of leg on the horse!) But it is my goal to find one to test ride in to see if that solves some of my issues. My horse is not a particularly great fit for them either, but I can great creative in that department.

There are always things to work on with posture, but on the whole I feel I’m pretty solid and seeing as how this has been going on for 5+ years, I hope I’ve at improved at least somewhat from when I started. :lol: Picture above is from a clinic a month ago with Liz Austin who had minimal suggestions for my posture, and I cliniced with Larry Poulin last week who actually didn’t mention it at all.

[GoForAGallop]

I should share that my 100% most FAVORITE saddle was just a cheapy Collegiate Senior Event: link

Now I sold that saddle 8+ years ago, but I always remember feeling quite secure and comfortable. Of course, it’s not a saddle that lends itself particularly well to a classic dressage position.

But if I could get that feeling in a dressage saddle? Bliss!

I also feel quite secure in my series of assorted County CC saddles. But it’s an entirely different position, of course.

[mountainhorse]

Your photo is interesting, it would be great if you want to post a video of you riding (same side profiles, and front and back), in your current saddle and on your current horse. A couple of things I note from the photo, which can be hard to tell as it’s a ‘moment in time’, but things to think about,…there is a lot of tension and some bracing in your ankle and hip flexors, bracing the leg and not allowing for the leg to come back (what above was referring to as bend in the knee), and hip to open. That would certainly ‘push’ you back in the saddle, giving you the feeling of needing to scoot forward constantly. The other thing I notice is the saddle-it’s quite an open seat. I would be interested to see what would happen if I put you in a closed seat that offers you a little more support at the cantle. I always tell my saddle clients, my biggest goal is to find you the saddle that supports you and your position (and helps alleviate your particular position weaknesses), not have you fighting it for a correct seat/position. So, having a little more support in the cantle might just allow you to sit more on balance point of your pelvis (instead of the back of your seat) and that balance will allow for your leg to hang under, instead of brain forward, allowing you to feel more in line and balanced on the saddle.
The other thing I would recommend is lunge lessons to work on the hip and leg, and work on stretching/releasing your hip flexors, as well as become more aware to not brace the ankle, which will travel up and affect your hip/seat as well. Without watching you ride or influencing your position in person, there are a couple of potential causes that I can’t tell are a cause or effect of the other, but definitely things I would look to first as a reason for your concerns.

ETA-I think we posted at the same time, and comparing the older photo (Collegiate) to the more recent one, there is the same type of bracing in the hip/ankle, even in the event saddle. (And, from my experience with Collegiate, they tend to encourage that sort of sitting, IMHO). So, seeing that, I would want you in something that takes that position concern (i.e.: it’s you, not the saddle) into consideration, to help you correct it. Try out lots of saddles, and if you have a trainer that can give you lunge lessons, take some lunge lessons with the saddles you try, on trial. Without being close enough to help you, I encourage you to try lots of different types, open and closed seats, tall and short cantle sizes, etc. Try lots, and be sure to take your time to get the right one. Of course, a saddle won’t take away the position weaknesses, or be a “majik cure :D”, but it can really help to have equipment that helps support you in the right way, not making you fight it!

[GoForAGallop]

[QUOTE=mountainhorse;8808454]
Your photo is interesting, it would be great if you want to post a video of you riding (same side profiles, and front and back), in your current saddle and on your current horse. A couple of things I note from the photo, which can be hard to tell as it’s a ‘moment in time’, but things to think about,…there is a lot of tension and some bracing in your ankle and hip flexors, bracing the leg and not allowing for the leg to come back (what above was referring to as bend in the knee), and hip to open. That would certainly ‘push’ you back in the saddle, giving you the feeling of needing to scoot forward constantly. The other thing I notice is the saddle-it’s quite an open seat. I would be interested to see what would happen if I put you in a closed seat that offers you a little more support at the cantle. I always tell my saddle clients, my biggest goal is to find you the saddle that supports you and your position (and helps alleviate your particular position weaknesses), not have you fighting it for a correct seat/position. So, having a little more support in the cantle might just allow you to sit more on balance point of your pelvis (instead of the back of your seat) and that balance will allow for your leg to hang under, instead of brain forward, allowing you to feel more in line and balanced on the saddle. [/QUOTE]

Sigh. Yes. I do catch myself bracing, although only on this horse. (See wee pony, on whom I can be very calm and loose, in exact same saddle: link) My regular trainer (who we trailer in to at least once a week) reminds me of this every time she catches me. He is a much bigger mover than my wee pony, and because I don’t feel solid in my dressage saddles, I find myself bracing.

I’ve started doing yoga this year to work on the tight hips and painfully tight hamstrings, and have started to see some improvement. I have an old injury that I try to protect.

I have a picture of me in a deeper seat from this spring (a Cardanel Olympian MKII, which I at least consider deep!) but it’s a bit too atrocious to post publicly. :lol: Happy to PM.

Do you work for a particular tack shop? I’m happy to work with someone to test ride in some saddles with video. The budget is there for a new one.

[mountainhorse]

I am a certified independent fitter, so I don’t work for a particular shop or brand, (i.e.: not a biased viewpoint towards one brand or the other and lots of experience with lots of various types of saddles). Feel free to PM me and let me know where you are in Mass. I may have know of a local fitter to refer you to, but happy to help you online via PM or email.
Does your trainer offer lunge lessons to work on positions? There are a few nice under saddle exercises that you can do on (and off) the lunge to help with the bracing/hip flexors, esp. if you are fighting scar tissue/compensations/ tight fascia from an old injury.

[GoForAGallop]

[QUOTE=mountainhorse;8808490]
I am a certified independent fitter, so I don’t work for a particular shop or brand, (i.e.: not a biased viewpoint towards one brand or the other and lots of experience with lots of various types of saddles). Feel free to PM me and let me know where you are in Mass. I may have know of a local fitter to refer you to, but happy to help you online via PM or email.
Does your trainer offer lunge lessons to work on positions? There are a few nice under saddle exercises that you can do on (and off) the lunge to help with the bracing/hip flexors, esp. if you are fighting scar tissue/compensations/ tight fascia from an old injury.[/QUOTE]

Sending you a PM!

[mvp]

[QUOTE=mountainhorse;8808454]
Your photo is interesting, it would be great if you want to post a video of you riding (same side profiles, and front and back), in your current saddle and on your current horse. A couple of things I note from the photo, which can be hard to tell as it’s a ‘moment in time’, but things to think about,…there is a lot of tension and some bracing in your ankle and hip flexors, bracing the leg and not allowing for the leg to come back (what above was referring to as bend in the knee), and hip to open. That would certainly ‘push’ you back in the saddle, giving you the feeling of needing to scoot forward constantly. The other thing I notice is the saddle-it’s quite an open seat. I would be interested to see what would happen if I put you in a closed seat that offers you a little more support at the cantle. I always tell my saddle clients, my biggest goal is to find you the saddle that supports you and your position (and helps alleviate your particular position weaknesses), not have you fighting it for a correct seat/position. So, having a little more support in the cantle might just allow you to sit more on balance point of your pelvis (instead of the back of your seat) and that balance will allow for your leg to hang under, instead of brain forward, allowing you to feel more in line and balanced on the saddle.
The other thing I would recommend is lunge lessons to work on the hip and leg, and work on stretching/releasing your hip flexors, as well as become more aware to not brace the ankle, which will travel up and affect your hip/seat as well. Without watching you ride or influencing your position in person, there are a couple of potential causes that I can’t tell are a cause or effect of the other, but definitely things I would look to first as a reason for your concerns.

ETA-I think we posted at the same time, and comparing the older photo (Collegiate) to the more recent one, there is the same type of bracing in the hip/ankle, even in the event saddle. (And, from my experience with Collegiate, they tend to encourage that sort of sitting, IMHO). So, seeing that, I would want you in something that takes that position concern (i.e.: it’s you, not the saddle) into consideration, to help you correct it. Try out lots of saddles, and if you have a trainer that can give you lunge lessons, take some lunge lessons with the saddles you try, on trial. Without being close enough to help you, I encourage you to try lots of different types, open and closed seats, tall and short cantle sizes, etc. Try lots, and be sure to take your time to get the right one. Of course, a saddle won’t take away the position weaknesses, or be a “majik cure :D”, but it can really help to have equipment that helps support you in the right way, not making you fight it![/QUOTE]

I agree. I’d put the anatomical problem/biomechanics problem a different way. (Again, I know this is a moment in time shot).

I think you aren’t sitting “level” on the bottom of your pelvis and don’t have your pubic bone down on the saddle, using your core to absorb shock. You are sitting back more on your sitting bones (if your hips are relaxed and flexible), or on the fleshy part of your butt if they are not.

Is your horse jarring to ride at the trot? I ask because I ride a downhill horse who is physically punishing to ride… even on his best day. I tend to want to take “cheater posture” that looks like yours and which comes from my years and years in hunter world. In essence, I don’t want to commit to glueing my whole pelvis to his back and getting strong enough in my core to follow him. If I don’t do that, ride off my thighs and stiff/stabilized hips and knees, I’d bounce on my tender pink lady bits. It takes more core strength than I have/want to develop to ride this downhill horse as well as a better-built one.

And my point is that my posture-- particularly the tucked angle of my pelvis and deep, hunter-like leg looks like yours. The stiff hips in this equation might be way you constantly push yourself back in the saddle. In my case, I’m clear that this position is an equitation/self-discipline problem. I’m not being pushed around by a saddle.

ETA: I watched your clip of sitting trot on the smaller bay. Yup, I think you use your pelvis the way I do in my cheater position. Rather than planting the whole thing on the horse, you sit on your sitting bones and try to “uncurl” your lower back to let the front of your pelvis drop with the horse’s stride. I think you need to change that strategy… but it will take time and fitness to achieve. You have to remodel your body so that you put your pubic bone down on the pommel, stretch up from the bottom of your rib cage and let your core do the work. The good news is that, even in short stints of riding in this position, if you feel tired in your abs, particularly the lower ones, you’ll know you are doing it right.

[no.stirrups]

I agree with Mountainhorse. I also wonder what happens with your seat when you ride without stirrups? That may reveal how much of the issue is caused by bracing your leg, though I agree the open seat is not helping.

Dropping your stirrups a hole or two, so they aren’t so accessible for pushing against, or riding with no stirrups at all for a while, will give you a chance to find a new balance, one that comes from sitting deeper and letting your leg drape. Then you will end up in the center of the saddle.

For a while, a center or rearward balance was very common among saddlemakers. Now forward balance is the “new” thing (again) with several saddlemakers featuring it in their latest models, such as the Black Country Dante and the Frank Baines Symphony collection. If that is what you end up needing, it will be easier to find now than it has been in the past.

[GoForAGallop]

[QUOTE=mountainhorse;8808454]

ETA-I think we posted at the same time, and comparing the older photo (Collegiate) to the more recent one, there is the same type of bracing in the hip/ankle, even in the event saddle. (And, from my experience with Collegiate, they tend to encourage that sort of sitting, IMHO). So, seeing that, I would want you in something that takes that position concern (i.e.: it’s you, not the saddle) into consideration, to help you correct it. [/QUOTE]

Well, those photos are about 12 years (and a few classical trainers, some of whom forced lunge lessons upon me!) apart, so you’ve just indeed confirmed that I sucked then, and I suck now. :lol:

I’ll stop blaming the saddles and just own it, I suppose.

[Scribbler]

[QUOTE=GoForAGallop;8808476]
Sigh. Yes. I do catch myself bracing, although only on this horse. (See wee pony, on whom I can be very calm and loose, in exact same saddle: https://www.instagram.com/p/BIlKYOyBySb/?taken-by=ohtislove) My regular trainer (who we trailer in to at least once a week) reminds me of this every time she catches me. He is a much bigger mover than my wee pony, and because I don’t feel solid in my dressage saddles, I find myself bracing.

I’ve started doing yoga this year to work on the tight hips and painfully tight hamstrings, and have started to see some improvement. I have an old injury that I try to protect.

I have a picture of me in a deeper seat from this spring (a Cardanel Olympian MKII, which I at least consider deep!) but it’s a bit too atrocious to post publicly. :lol: Happy to PM.

Do you work for a particular tack shop? I’m happy to work with someone to test ride in some saddles with video. The budget is there for a new one.[/QUOTE]

I would agree with all the posters that say your position problem is more fundamental than the saddle you are riding in.

In all 3 photos, you are in a bit of a chair seat, meaning that your heel is not really under the midpoint of your hip, but rather scooting a little forward (indeed, very chair seat on wee pony where you say you are most relaxed). And yes, you do look braced against the stirrup. In the 2 horse photos, you are also tilting forward on your pelvis, which is causing your butt to move backwards relative to everything else, and you have an overarched small of your back. Did you start out in hunter/jumper? These are common problems people develop in those disciplines, where they aren’t as much of an issue if you can do a secure two-point for the actual jumping.

I can see why your coach is telling you to move your leg back. But if that is all your coach is telling you, then you need to go find some seat lessons with someone who is a more nuanced observer of human biomechanics, and can get you doing exercises on the longe line to loosen up your hips. You might also want to try some massage or chiro, or physical therapy, to get yourself evaluated for imbalances.

The reason I say get some extra input here, is that I expect that you can’t get your leg under you for any substantial length of time, because the problem is not in your leg, or in your concentration and effort, but rather further up your body in your hips and pelvis.

In fact, it is possible that when your coach says “get your leg back,” you make an effort to drop your heels, and this makes you brace against the stirrups and effectively pushes your butt back in the saddle.

“Heels down” and “legs back” are basic riding instructions, but they only address the visible problem, not the source of the problem. So while they work for teaching people who have no physical restrictions (ie, ten year olds), they don’t work when the rider has restrictions that are causing the problems. I suspect that a lot of coaches, faced with a student who has persistent position problems, end up secretly thinking “well, that’s just Suzie, she’s never going to be a really great rider,” or even “well, Suzie just isn’t trying hard enough, she can’t concentrate on her position.” And then they treat the basic position problem as a “work-around,” that is a glitch that they can’t solve, and continue on with what they can teach you.

I found myself starting to ride in a bit of a chair seat when maresy had a spell of balk and buck. I wanted to be secure in my seat, so I jammed my heels down trying to get deeper in my seat, which pushed my butt back in the saddle (a bit like a western bronc rider). My coach was grumbling about this until the day I explained I was trying to get a deeper seat, and she showed me what she does, which is to drop the thigh back and deep, and then the rest of the leg and the foot follows. I started practicing that, and it has started to become a natural feeling. I also finally started to see what coach means by saying “you kneel in the saddle like you are kneeling in a pew.”

Interestingly, my coach kept saying that I must have really tight hips, because of my chair seat, which I didn’t really think I had. And then it turned out it was in fact a conceptual thing; when I learned how to drop my thigh, my seat really improved.

[GoForAGallop]

@Scribbler;8808582

Did you start out in hunter/jumper? These are common problems people develop in those disciplines, where they aren’t as much of an issue if you can do a secure two-point for the actual jumping.

I can see why your coach is telling you to move your leg back. But if that is all your coach is telling you, then you need to go find some seat lessons with someone who is a more nuanced observer of human biomechanics, and can get you doing exercises on the longe line to loosen up your hips. You might also want to try some massage or chiro, or physical therapy, to get yourself evaluated for imbalances.

The reason I say get some extra input here, is that I expect that you can’t get your leg under you for any substantial length of time, because the problem is not in your leg, or in your concentration and effort, but rather further up your body in your hips and pelvis.

In fact, it is possible that when your coach says “get your leg back,” you make an effort to drop your heels, and this makes you brace against the stirrups and effectively pushes your butt back in the saddle.

I actually started at 7yo in a dressage barn, where I was a fantastic little rider for the next seven years. I then bought this grey gelding, and trotted off to the h/j world, which is what all my friends were doing and having way more fun with.

I returned to dressage about six years ago (after sustaining the injury to my hip and just in general getting old) and have worked with several different trainers since then. Been with my current trainer for two and a half years now, and have been working with every big name who comes through for clinics as well.

You’re correct that I CANNOT get my leg any further back. I get “more…no more…I literally can’t even tell that you moved it!” from my coach all the time. My massage budget is used up every month by the damn horse’s bodywork. :lol: But maybe he will have to skip a month.

Part of the problem is that I rode quite well on my narrow TB mare, who I had to put down several years ago now. This gelding is a little too big/wide for me (not something a 13yo picking out a horse considers!), which puts a bigger spotlight on the issues.

[GoForAGallop]

Thank you everyone for your input! I’m going to remove the links to the photos just to preserve a little bit of internet anonymity.

[ulan]

There are several points that reminded me of how many times I saw your problems in my clinics or judging ( a long time ago). In the clinics i would first of all make you visually find the center of your horse. It should be behind the elbow
in line to the withers . It is not a must, that the girth is right behind the elbow.
My teacher had definite sayings for problems like yours. First- If you feel the shoulders move your knee,your saddle is blocking the freedom to reach.
Next- if you can’t open your hips, look at your britches!! Are they so tight that your butts are like hard balloons? Do you feel your line from knee to hip tight? When you are in the saddle, are there stretch folds in front of the pubic area?
Here goes- do you remember those poofs the old Cavalry britches had? There were no stretch materials in those days and that cut of the britches took care of the need to have room for your seat and legs. Boy, mentioning these things, date me!! YOU BRITCHES ARE TOO TIGHT. Just for testing, ride with a loose pair of gymnastic or similar pants and feel how all of a sudden your seat is spread enough for you to have total contact from knee to knee. Now you are sitting DEEP. NOW get into your saddle and find out where it does not feel right
Even on a short horse it is more important for the saddle to be OFF the withers than worry about a short back. Short horses have shorter connection there and seem to be stronger there. NOW move your saddle back. Is it level? Is it behind the shoulders/ The front of the saddle still is a bit over them but it is the frame we are worried about now.
Changing these things when I was with students, always eased the problem and at times had unbelievable changes in the way the horse was moving!!! With no pinching in the shoulders, blocking them, and you sitting comfortably deep it might be that these small things will help.
Another advise I got at home - have two pairs of britches. One at least a size larger for riding and another one to look “cool”!!!
There is so much knowledge in the other blogs about saddles.

Good luck I so hope this will help.

[CFFarm]

Saddle on "pony’ ( one on video clip) is too small for you.