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CANTER Cutie - BUT he's a 7yo stallion... thoughts?

Just wondering what people think about purchasing an OTTB straight off the track if he’s still in tact (and NOT a baby)? I’m personally NOT looking - but I’m in the “learning” stages! Totally appreciate the feedback of you COTHer Experts! Here’s the Horse that started the discussion among my friends: http://canterusa.org/horses/copmanhurst/

I bought a 7yo OTTB stallion who had been a teaser for a few years. Gelded him and he was out with geldings after a couple weeks already. But he was a real doll to start. Got another at 5yo and he turned out great too. Both were lovely boys and I wouldn’t hesitate to do it again but it depends on the individual horse, obviously. ??

He is very cute. If he has never covered a mare, there is a world of difference in his behavior right there. If you really like him, buy him and geld him. I wouldn’t hesitate, rescues are gelding stallions in their 20s.

I have one that was gelded late, around 7 or 8. He’s a lovely horse. I wouldn’t pass one up for that reason alone.

I’d be more worried about why he was a 7 year old with only 6 starts.

[QUOTE=Highflyer;8404992]
I’d be more worried about why he was a 7 year old with only 6 starts.[/QUOTE]

There are some conformational reasons, too, that this wouldn’t be a horse for me. But his Balls On would not be one of 'em. I would want to meet him in person so that I could try to figure out how quiet/tractable he’ll be after he’s gelded. But I supposed that question about the mind is true for any horse, not just stallions.

Ive known three late geldings. Two of the three had good temperaments going in, one was a bit of a snot.

All three came through the surgery and recovery fine. The snot remained the snot.

Agree that there is a bit of conformation issue that I would avoid, but there is not harm in seeing him in real life.

Thanks for your thoughts & sharing your experiences. A couple people commented on conformation issues that are catching your eyes… can I hear what you’re seeing? I’m thinking he looks maybe a tad over at the knee & is more butt-high than I personally like - but nothing TOO glaring to my (somewhat inexperienced) eye. Like I mentioned - I’m not buying - just learning at this point! Thanks!

I have a late gelded OTTB gelding (gelded as a 3 year old, never bred). If he’s out with geldings, he’s amazing, my son can ride him, quiet kick ride, great manners, stands in the cross ties without budging, ties to a trailer all day long and sleeps, goes in a stall and just munches hay. If he’s out with a mare…OMG. I almost sent him back at first, but he was alone when I first got him and so amazing I held on and I’m glad I did.

With girls he’s AWFUL, obsessed with his mare friends, screams and paces if he can’t see them, horrible ground manners, paces and moves in the cross ties, kicks and whirls in the stall screaming, and a ball of tension under saddle and feels like he’s about to explode, horribly barn sour and speeds to the barn and you need a spur to keep him straight, and crop to keep him going leaving.

I’d NEVER experienced that much of a Jekyll and Hyde personality and it was the WEIRDEST thing. I was able to get in touch with his original owner off the track and we put him out alone…and now with another gelding and he’s fine, her next suggestion was depo but if he stays this quiet I won’t need it.

He’s quite camped out behind and very downhill, with a fairly funky looking topline that looks like it would be murder to fit a saddle to. It looks like his natural way of going would likely be a bit giraffe-y/stargazing, with an inverted topline and trailing hocks, and naturally on the forehand. Probably not easy to get him reaching under himself and working through his back, let alone getting him to shift weight back onto his hocks. The exact book I’m thinking of escapes me (Dressage in Harmony, Walter Zettl, maybe?) but there is a great illustration showing how untrained, green, and advanced horses carry weight under saddle using parallelograms, so an untrained/young horse carries weight on the forehand like this (imagine horse moving toward the right of the screen): //, a horse in intermediate/green stages of training will be more equal: ||, and horses who are advanced in their training will shift weight back, so they look more like __. All this to say, I bet it would be tough to get this guy to even the || stage, because he is built to go //.

[QUOTE=Cossack;8404809]
Just wondering what people think about purchasing an OTTB straight off the track if he’s still in tact (and NOT a baby)? I’m personally NOT looking - but I’m in the “learning” stages! Totally appreciate the feedback of you COTHer Experts! Here’s the Horse that started the discussion among my friends: http://canterusa.org/horses/copmanhurst/[/QUOTE]

I didn’t look at the ad, but just wanted to make a general comment about stallions.

Really depends on the horse. I’ve known many stallions who were just gentlemen. One such stallion belonged to my cousin, who bred a few mares every year. I used him a couple times to carry flags at indoor rodeos (back when I did the rodeo queen thing) and the one night, he stood in-between two mares the whole night and not one single peep out of him. Such a well-mannered gentleman!

Ultimately, depends on the horse.

A horse with only 6 starts that’s been mostly standing around for almost 8 years priced at 3k (plus the more expensive older horse surgery)? Probably loose me there.

But it looks like he has an upside down neck, that’s no track topline. The neck comes out of the chest a bit too low and the bottom curves the wrong way. For me, he’s a proportionally a little long below the knees and low backed. These things might be excused if he was in regular work at least at the track but does not sound like he ever has been.

Plus that, they are depending totally on what they are told by the seller, they’ve never touched the horse. For 3k plus the castration surgery costs, you can go to New Vocations or similar that have the horse on site and have worked with it, maybe even restarted it under saddle, so they really gave been able to evaluate the horse for temperment and soundness. Get a pretty good project with better chance of success for that price.

I appreciate CANTER and the work they do and hope this guy finds a soft landing, but he’s not suitable for the average one horse owner who boards out and is inexperienced in selecting and restarting OTTBs. Somebody more adept at that game with a place to keep them if they prove too unsound for regular work might find him a possibility but likely not at that price.

I’d want to know the reason for 7 y/o and 6 starts.

That being said, I don’t see a camped out behind horse really so much as the pose he decided to strike when the paparazzi came.

Nothing bad about that butt either. Looks lovely and rounded.

Draw a line for the topline… A little longer than I like but strong loin. Where’s the video?

Personally, it’s funny that people comment on his back but miss the legs. He’s crooked up front BUT that wouldn’t stop me based on the tightness of his legs… so long as he was sound… nice horse. Could be a bargain for someone but maybe not at $3k.

Maybe they didn’t miss anything but don’t care to comment on too many details with a CANTER offering?

Interesting, all 6 starts are since mid June in Maiden Claimers. Looked like he peaked with a fourth in Sep but went the other way in his last start a few weeks ago.

Wonder where he was for the last 7 years? And doing what?

[QUOTE=findeight;8405571]
Maybe they didn’t miss anything but don’t care to comment on too many details with a CANTER offering?[/QUOTE]

Kashmere certainly didn’t spare any details on their opinion of the horse. I was just pointing out that of their perceived flaws of a CANTER horse, they sure missed a big one.

What mystifies me more than anything is this guy’s front end. Particularly his shoulder. I’d like to see a video of him going… I want to see all that in motion.

In the end I think $3k is a little steep but maybe they’ve been doing other things with him. He certainly doesn’t look like he’s been languishing in a stall all these years.

Didn’t intend to come across as rude or super duper critical - sorry about that :slight_smile: I think he’s a cutie, which I should have included (posting at work - not always the best practice). I’m not a professional or an incredible expert - I’ve just ridden my fair share of horses with a similar overall build to this guy in terms of topline and shape, and in my experience, they are harder for the amateur to ride in such a way that the horse is working correctly over the back. He doesn’t look like he’d be easy to “package” and that’s often something that amateur riders struggle with, and it’s something that I’m really cognizant of when I’m looking for projects or horses for myself. My old mare, who I loved and valued beyond rubies, was shaped similarly, and she was AWESOME -but a challenge in that way.

Agree with your assessment on his front end and shoulder - his movement would be interesting to see.

Anyone else think the marks on the forelegs are…odd?

Late gelding wouldn’t necessarily bother me; I’ve had several, two were perfect gentleman, one was a jerk, probably because he was a jerk, not because he was cut late.

However, this horse has three, maybe four strikes against him: race record/ soundness, late gelding, confo, price and maybe whatever that is on his shins.

I would like to offer his groom a job, he’s in lovely condition.

[QUOTE=beowulf;8405594]
He certainly doesn’t look like he’s been languishing in a stall all these years.[/QUOTE]
Agree ~ if you look at his recorded works history, it looks like they started working him at the track in late 2013/early 2014 - but they were all super slow. They brought him back in 4/2015 for recorded works - again slow. He has works throughout 2015 & ALL his 6 crummy races were in 2015 (his best finish was 4th with 3 9ths, a 6th & a 7th place finish.
Being he’s a homebred (Owner/Breeder is Phillip) - I bet the owner kept him in pasture most the time - realizing that he wasn’t much of a racehorse - but hoping the horse might prove him wrong! lol
You’re right about looking crooked up front. I was seeing a little over at the knee - but now that I look straight on - he just looks a little crooked!
Very interested to see him move, now. Hmmmmm…

CANTER said on the Facebook Post about him, “…the curly hair on the front legs was apparently from his wraps (they took them off prior to the photo shoot).”

[QUOTE=kashmere;8405504]
He’s quite camped out behind and very downhill, with a fairly funky looking topline that looks like it would be murder to fit a saddle to. It looks like his natural way of going would likely be a bit giraffe-y/stargazing, with an inverted topline and trailing hocks, and naturally on the forehand. Probably not easy to get him reaching under himself and working through his back, let alone getting him to shift weight back onto his hocks. The exact book I’m thinking of escapes me (Dressage in Harmony, Walter Zettl, maybe?) but there is a great illustration showing how untrained, green, and advanced horses carry weight under saddle using parallelograms, so an untrained/young horse carries weight on the forehand like this (imagine horse moving toward the right of the screen): //, a horse in intermediate/green stages of training will be more equal: ||, and horses who are advanced in their training will shift weight back, so they look more like __. All this to say, I bet it would be tough to get this guy to even the || stage, because he is built to go //.[/QUOTE]

I, too, see downhill and I stopped there. I also wondered if this horse didn’t toe in, in front, and if that didn’t start up above his knee. I would not want to own that horse way into middle age if I were going to send him to a jumping career. And he is camped out behind… maybe a tad short in the neck.

But the balance and toeing-in were things that would disqualify him for me.
But Camped out is also