Scribbler -
I don’t have my own horse right now, I am riding school horses that are trained for H/J, not dressage. I try to be as consistent as possible on them but it is a challenge when there are many other people riding them who might not use the same aides that I do.
Well no in those circumstances you aren’t going to get much customization.
We were having a dopy low energy day today, so I checked out a few things. In fact, we’ve lost the trot walk transition from the seat. It got superseded by the trot to collected trot transition which is fine. But a good example of, you can’t have two cues or aids that are really similar to each other.
Then we did lazy trot circles on the buckle. It turns out that the main cue for turn, at least today, was me turning my head. Thigh was minimal just as much as moved when my head moved. My shoulders didn’t move, they stayed in the same position relative to the horse.
I think on days with more impulsion though I can’t do all my steering just be looking! But it really drives home why your jump coach is always yelling to look where you want to go :).
So how does the leg at the girth affect the hind leg on that side? And where is the horse bending? Is he moving his rib cage away from the inside leg?
It is interesting how difficult it is to describe how to turn a horse.
The way I was taught is that you steer a horse with your thighs and your weight and when needed you give with the outside rein to create bend. It is easier to do this when your you ride inside leg to outside hand. That is - when your inside leg keeps the inside leg active and you contain that energy with the seat and outside hand.
On green horses, I sometimes bring my inside hand in toward the center of the circle (but never back!) to guide the nose around the turn. Once a horse is trained, I expect to be able to turn with both reins in one hand using just my thigh and seat, the horse should turn just like a well broke western horse neckreining.
I find that even green horses tend to go in the direction you point your eyes and your belly button. Try it. I think this is because when you point your belly button your outside thigh closes and when you look in the direction you want to go your hands don’t tend to interfere and your weight shifts.
Canter transitions can vary from horse to horse depending on how each horse was taught. Classically trained horses respond to outside calf and supporting inside leg aids timed to when the horse’s inside hind leg steps forward and/or they respond to the rider lifting the inside seatbone when the horse’s inside hind leg swings forward.
I tend to just use leg aids for canter transitions when I am posting and I often use my seat with a bit of leg for walk-canter transitions and from the sitting trot to canter.
In my experience show hunter trained horses tend to take more inside leg pressure into the canter.
He bends his rib cage around it, not away from it. But first he has to move off it.
One of my primary clinicians says (over and over:eek:) that the response to the inside leg is, ideally, a reaction in three parts, or, that there are three reactions to the inside leg: Ahead of, Off, and Around.
The progression and priority depend on the horse’s level of training in relation to the training scale, but the aim is to achieve all three as we progress up the levels.
First priority is Ahead Of-- he horse must first be in front of the inside leg which means he HAS TO move ahead of the leg aid. From halt to walk, walk to trot, trot to canter, he must take pressure from the inside leg as a forward and driving aid. You put the leg on and he says, “Yes, sir or Yes Ma’am” and he MARCHES or GOES.
Second priority is Off-- he must be off of it, which means that when it is applied in order to ask him to MOVE OVER then he must promptly do so. With the focus on the horse’s hind leg on that side being the most responsive leg. This comes into play as the horse is learning to leg yield. At this stage he must be ahead of and also OFF the inside leg. The position of the leg doesn’t change but the intensity might change in order to teach him that both are expected.
Third priority is Around-- This is where we now ask the horse to bend his ribcage around the inside leg, first for shoulder fore and shoulder in, and then the haunches in, and half pass. So no, it’s not bending the the rib cage away from your leg, but rather “around” it.
As the gymnastics continue up the levels toward FEI requests, we expect the response to include all three of the reactions to the inside leg when it is applied. Ahead Of, Off, And Around, all at the same time. Canter piros, steeper half passes and zig zags, every movement performed with more balance onto the hind legs.
This is what she teaches, and I think if we use our inside leg this way and expect this 3-pronged result of it, and build on this, then it really makes sense as we go up the levels.
Hope this helps. It’s not my idea, but it’s something that’s been sort-of drilled into me over the past couple of years because this is my coach’s coach, and also someone I clinic with a couple of times each year.
OK thats clear! But wondering how you see the horse both moving away from and around the inside leg? When I do shoulder in I understand the horse to be moving away from my inside leg into 3 tracks. It seems to me like a continuum from leg yield or turn on forehand in that regard. We might just be describing the same thing differently.
WhereDidMySeatGo? -
Thanks, that makes sense. I’m planning on trying it when I ride later on today.
Why do you ask for canter when the inside hind leg is in the air? The horse starts the first beat on the outside hind, it can’t respond until the outside hind is up.
In my experience, its always been the exact opposite. That’s really interesting.
I ask for the canter by doing a shallow scoop with my seat at the same time as applying mostly inner leg with some outside leg behind the girth. But too much outside leg pushes his haunches in, so it is really just a split second of pressure, mostly with the inside leg.
Turning, I use my body (belly button in the direction of my turn) and my outside thigh and rein. Inside leg is there to bend them around and inside rein is used if needed.
The whole around, ahead of and off of your inside leg was a major lightbulb moment for me!!
Exactly, and that’s the tricky part. Or more accurately, one of the hundred tricky parts. I probably asked her the same question from the saddle, when she first told me the concept.
The answer is: the outside aids are what tell the horse that he’s off the inside leg, but, not so far off it that he moves over. The outside aids prevent the moving over and they (rein and leg) direct the horse to continue straight-- or to turn, or to half pass, or whatever the case may be. In conjunction with being off, around and ahead of the inside leg.
So it’s the outside aids capturing the energy of the result of those three requests from the inside leg which puts the horse more uphill, more balanced onto the hind leg, more properly engaged and more bent.
And the balance between inside aids/outside aids and the nuances of that balance and the positioning of reins & legs (and to some lesser degree weight and body position) is what leads to either a rebalancing (half halt) or change in gait (such as trot to canter, as in the OP original question), or a turn, or whatever else.
Has anyone yet mentioned the riders’ shoulders? In regard to the original question, in a circle the riders shoulders should be turning into the turn as if they have eyeballs on their chest that need to see where they are going, while in canter the shoulders are turned toward the outside of the line of travel to mirror what is happening with the horses’ shoulders.
The difference between aids and cues is that cues are like a recipe in that a specific input will yield a specific output while aids are a language. I could tell you what I normally do for a circle or canter transition, but depending on exactly what is happening at the time such as degree of straightness, degree of connection/engagement/collection, line of travel, environmental challenges, etc. my aids will vary. Sometimes I might need more inside leg, sometimes more outside leg, sometimes just a shift of my seatbones.
Maybe think of it as if you are trying to as a person for help with a task. If you are asking a co-worker you will ask differently than if you are asking a friend or a stranger. If you are asking someone you like it will be different than asking someone you don’t like. If you are asking someone that tends to be highly sensitive you will ask differently than someone who doesn’t take hints. If you are asking someone that you are very close to and know well you might not need words at all, but just a moment of eye contact. So as with learning to talk to people effectively starts with listening, learning to aid horses starts with feeling.
Samantha37 -
How do you scoop with your seat? Is it just a slightly exaggerated movement with one seat bone? The inside leg to outside leg ratio varies a lot in the horses I ride. Like one of the other posters said above, I find that the experienced hunters need more outside leg than inside while the less experienced ones will put their haunches in if I use too much, so I do the opposite.
no.shoulders -
Thanks for answering the shoulders question. When you said the shoulders should be out at the canter, you’re talking about cantering on a straight line, right? Or do they stay out a bit more than w/t on a circle too?
Your explanation of aids vs cues makes a lot of sense. I get that the aids vary depending on what the horse is doing but if each possible piece is not explained it would be hard to learn it.
The shoulder of the rider follow the shoulders of the horse. If you are on a circle, the shoulders folow the degree of the bend of that circle. If you are doing S/I the shoulders turn with the horse’s shoulders.
While legs and seat delineate the bend, direction is prompted by the hips. The outside rein kepis the horse from overbending. In a good off the leg, and body S/I the inside rein can be dropped as it can be on a circle.
Too many riders are entirely too dependent on the reins.
Rather than thinking of a scoop, which is downward, on a canter strike off, think more of a lift. So lift you hips into the canter.
merry-go-round -
When you say the hips control the direction, you’re talking about the riders hips, right? How are the hips different from the seat?
The legs control the bend which indicates direction, Hard to go left if bent right. Right? If the hips move sideways, the horse goes sideways, maintaining the bend directed by the legs. If the hips go forward, ‘voila’, a circle, so long as the hips and shoulders support it. There are many small nuances in the use of seat. legs , and body. Not too teachable by written word.
They stay out more on a circle, too, though less than if cantering on a straight line. The guiding principle here is that the rider’s hips and shoulders should mirror the horse’s hips and shoulders, so observe what the horse is doing in different gaits and on different lines and let that help you understand what your body should be doing.
Yes a lift is more appropriate than a scoop. You definitely don’t ever want to push down on the horse’s back with your seat. I kind of just lift my seat into the motion of the canter.
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