How do you guys ask for canter versus asking for a circle/change of direction? I am probably way overthinking it but I’ve been taught that they are both basically the same (outside leg back, inside at the girth, inside rein flexes the head, outside rein supports the shoulder). What makes them different?
Hm… I ask for turns differently. I will use my inside leg at the girth and hold the outside rein against the neck.
In the canter, I use the motion of my seat and a slightly stronger sweeping motion with my outside spur.
Ideally, I’d like to work towards using only my weight for both of these 
The best thing my trainer has been teaching me is “DO LESS” and it has done wonders for me :lol:
(Although knowing the COTH forums… I’m probably doing everything drastically wrong ¯_(ツ)_/¯ )
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For what you are doing… I’d guess you probably use different levels of pressure with the legs/reins, and I bet you apply them in different combinations. It’s crazy how horses can decipher subtle differences like that!
I push a horse intro the canter to get leap. I guide them into flowing around a circle.
canter has more inside rein to aid the shoulder, and a lift off the inside seat bone to get the horse to follow me.
circle has more inside leg-> outside rein connection with more horse-stretch for the outside rein. Outside leg doesn’t really come into play unless horsey gets squirrely with his haunches. , whereas in canter cue the outside leg creates the “step under” in the hind for the canter depart, so the inside leg has some power to use for the front end lift .
I need to learn German, I think. English doesn’t have enough words.
They are NOT “cues” The horse learns how to position its body and respond to “aids” over periods of time, enabling it to perform movements from the lower levels to Grand Prix. Cues produce tricks which belong in bad circuses. Learn what the aids are, and how they shape the horse, and how to train the horse to understand their meaning.
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I ask my horse to canter by applying my inside leg at the girth, or if he’s really on the aids, just my inside seat bone. I turn my horse with my thighs. Left thigh on means turn right, right thigh on means turn left.
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I try to avoid getting into the whole inside seat bone thing with riders initially. What they end up doing is trying to shove the horse into the canter with their seat (or inside seat bone). The seat is a collecting aid - always. Outside leg slightly back should be sufficient. This becomes extremely obvious when doing tempi changes. You see some riders working so hard to canter off their seats, that they end up practically jumping out of the saddle from side to side. It’s awful to watch, doesn’t work, and confuses the horse.
To the OP - your outside leg on a circle should be applied to hold the haunches in the bend. It won’t be as far back as your canter aid.
I don’t use my outside leg to turn. I use my outside thigh, and leave my calf off. The outside rein works as an indirect rein, and the inside rein is minimal unless horse is really counter bending. At this stage she is fairly balanced so I tend to leave inside rein alone.
Canter is a work in progress. Mare will be resistant and then once she gets going, feather light and reactive. I think we are working towards developing canter cue as just inside leg at girth, with giving hands.
Maresy will get very upset at conflicting aids or at a bumpy or grinding seat so she has taught me to be quiet that way.
Maresy tracks up fine on a circle now walk or trot. There is no need to hold her haunches in or out with an aid, but if we are doing shoulder in or shoulder out or haunches in or out, obviously that’s the appropriate calf and usually rein of opposition (will check that today!).
At canter we can fall haunches in on the right lead, so that gets fixed leg and rein.
Anyhow, it depends on how schooled horse is. But it’s easy I think to imagine there are too many moving parts to the aids when in fact the horse can trot a circle without being held on track constantly.
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What I usually do for canter is sweep my outside leg back and as it is going back, close both legs at the same time.
For a circle, I would put inside leg on first and get the bend into the first step and then use the outside to move them into it.
For those of you that said you use your thighs, how do you do that? What does “closing” mean? I’ve been taught that thigh pressure means half halt/downward transition. Do you still use your inside calf for bend, or do you use your inside thigh for that?
digihorse - A cue and an aid is basically the same thing to me. They are both a change that asked for a change in the horse. I’m here posting to try and get it straight in my mind. I’m not looking for a shortcut to do circus tricks, I am trying to learn.
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@Slaptail Exactly… they are the same thing to you. If you want to learn, then change your idea. Cues belong in riding that does not require more than a unbalanced walk, trot, canter from a horse. Aids belong to the realm of horsemanship and real riding. There is a difference for reason. If you want to ride and train dressage, learn that reason.
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OP, you can see that this is not such a simple question! One book I found really helpful to understand the “natural aids” vs “trained aids” in the basic gaits is Riding Essentials by Francois Lemaire de Ruffieu.
https://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Riding-Essentials-Illustrated-Instructions-ebook/dp/B01C9ENOAW/ref=sr_1_2?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1525970355&sr=1-2&dpID=51pB4rgxaQL&preST=SY445_QL70&dpSrc=srch
But all the aids are learned. If you get on an unbroke horse he will not know that leg on means go or that rein means turn or halt. Some aids work more intuitively with how the horse moves, some don’t, and some seen to but actually don’t because we have the wrong idea how the horses body works.
In other words there is no “natural aid” versus “trained aid” in riding and the only natural aids would be the crudest first steps in natural horsemanship ground work.
The difference is not between natural and trained aids.
The difference is between the level of coherence consistency distinction and subtleties of trained aids. If you want to “save” an aid for a later more difficult move you will not want to assign it at the start to a basic move. If you plan to move onto a more difficult move later you will want to lay the foundation of doing the basics correctly at the start.
If you haven’t trained several horses up to a high level this is something you won’t really know without outside direction. My coach knows it, I don’t.
And some times does it really matter? If someone says to me, if you use this aid for that, it will mess up your piaffe or your one tempes later on, well, if it’s a clinician I keep a straight face. But really. If your horse is not going that far and you know it, there are some things you don’t need to worry about
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Hmmm. I kind of raise my core and carry my hands for half halt and perhaps the thigh does press down.
The thigh to turn the shoulders is more the thigh going in the direction of the turn and also turning my head in that direction. I’ve had horse turning simply off my head turn on a loose rein when she’s feeling cooperative, they can definitely feel that shift if weight. Anyhow the turn develops out of the way my body would turn with the horse.
The thigh is to move the shoulders. I would use the calf plus outside rein for moving the hindquarters.
I don’t actually think a horse turns around the rider’s inside leg in a fashion that makes putting the inside leg on first meaningful. I also don’t think a well schooled horse needs the outside rider’s leg to keep bumping him into the circle. If you think the hindquarters are drifting in or out, for sure fix them. But a reasonably well schooled horse can stay on two track on a circle without micromanaging each step. In other words, I think you can pare down the aids and do a lot less, which gives your aids more clarity when you do use them.
As far as lateral work, I’m hoping to eventually get consistent shoulder in from my weight shift before I use leg. Some times schooling this does happen.
It must be some sort of a « lost in translation » mistake.
François … Ruffieu is French… yet all his book are in English… I digress.
And some times does it really matter? If someone says to me, if you use this aid for that, it will mess up your piaffe or your one tempes later on, well, if it’s a clinician I keep a straight face. But really. If your horse is not going that far and you know it, there are some things you don’t need to worry about
The think is that you think you know it… but you never know. Maybe this horse won’t make it, but what about you? Maybe you’ll need to learn proper aids for later on… what’s the point of working on average/misused/improper aids?
Like you said about your trainer knowing more than you, you should listen to trainers you clinic with because they do know better than you. Aren’t you paying them for their knowledge?
The educated horse (and rider) understands the half halt, understands the use of leg aids, understands the use of the seat, and understands the various combination of their use to enable us to communicate with the horse.
Yes similar aids are used on a circle the canter, and the H/I, but they are modified by other aids.
For both horse and rider, learning and understanding the aids is a building block affair. Some riders understand somethings instinctively, some horses seemed genetically inclined to learn some things easily, but that cannot be taken for granted.
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piedmontfields -
Thanks for the book recommendation. I have that one on my book list & was planning on getting it eventually.
Scribbler -
I think I am starting to understand it, but just to make sure… You move the horses shoulder over by pushing forward & diagonally with your outside thigh? But when you do that, you keep your outside seat bone and leg back.
I’m still confused on what the inside calf & thigh are supposed to be doing. If the inside calf doesn’t ask for bend, what does ask for it?
I’m kind of going off track a little bit but what do you do with your shoulders in the turn? I’ve seen people say turn your shoulders with the turn and I’ve also seen people say don’t turn them because it twists your upper body.
I’m also confused on how you’re supposed to use your core. I’ve heard some people say you need to use it all the time to sit properly and I’ve also heard its used for transitions & half halts. I don’t understand how it can be used for so many things without confusing the horse. How is it used differently to get each response?
merrygoround -
I thought I did understand it at some point but I’ve realized that there are many holes in what I thought I had.
You need someone to restack your building blocks.
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This is true. I was being a bit ironic or sardonic.
The best I can describe it is that I turn my head, my thigh follows, and my horse turns (if she is in a tuned up and light mood). I don’t think I consciously do anything with my inner seat bones.
I don’t do anything independently with my inner calf except for lateral work. If I wanted my horse to shoulder in on the circle I’d use my inner leg.
If the single leg means to move the haunch away, I don’t see how it is going to also ask the body to bend towards it on a circle. I think you use the inner leg on the circle if you want shoulder fore or shoulder in, which applied subtly does help the horse follow the circle in a balanced way if it’s green.
One of the things about putting in a lot of saddle time on one horse is that you can start developing your own mutual version of the code of aids. You might have a horse that isn’t very far “up the levels” but will reliably do a trot walk transition when you tighten your abs, or turn when you turn your head. On the other hand riding a new horse that’s much more “advanced” you might have to think through all your aids and be quite emphatic.
A horse can be light and responsive with limited “advancement” or can be a heavy pulling monster but capable of Grand Prix if you can muscle him into it. Obviously the ideal would be both light and accomplished, but on the journey there I will certainly take light at the lower levels!
So all I can say about using core is that if you always use your body and position in the same way for the same things, the horse will adapt to very small shifts in weight. IME horses prefer to have the choice to respond to weight cues before rein cues, so if the subtle weight shift always precedes the rein cue, they will respond to that.
However I think I ride with a quiet seat generally, maresy won’t take grinding or twisting or pushing with the seat, si she can feel weight cues when they happen.
I actually think of this more as Western riding than dressage specifically, the kind of Western working horse that has just learned to move with a certain rider and accept that rider as a second brain.
There aren’t specific instructions like if you move your ribcage up x inches the horse will automatically stop. It’s more a learned partnership between the two of you.
The inner leg does not mean to move the haunch away. That is a western concept. The leg behind the girth, in a leg yield asks the haunches to yield… The leg at the girth asks for bend, and engagement of the inside hind and combined with the weight aids of the seat has even more nuanced meaning. The difference is training level to FEI.
