Canter vs Trot Half Pass, Iberian worker-bee type

[pluvinel]

@enjoytheride

In my dressage lesson yesterday my trainer said “do less.”

In a very sensitive horse, “doing less” means just that, do more “nothing” other than think about what you want. A sensitive horse understands. Put the movement in your body.

What I mean is think of your body in haunches in. Do a “haunches in Left” unmounted. What does your body do? Your hips point left. Your right shoulder is back. Your balance is left as your move into the bend.

If you do this on a sensitive horse, the horse will seek to maintain its balance and your weight centered, so it will mimic your position.

Once you have ridden a hot sensitive horse, you won’t go back to the…ummmm…less sensitive horse.

[Arlomine]

So many excellent suggestions here. I have personally found that Franklin balls are extremely useful for both myself and Students when sorting through seat confusion. Just another option.

[exvet]

Ok my Welsh Cob is very, very short coupled and to add to it he’s a tension freak, convinced he knows what I want before I do He too has more difficulty bending to the right at all gaits. So, we work on bending and at all gaits. We exaggerate the bend (ask for more) for short spurts so that the correct amount of bend is ‘easier’ for him and a place where he wants to go. I do this in hand and then under saddle. Use of volte’s at first at the walk, then at the trot working back and forth in each direction has helped us establish and understand the bend as in where in the rib cage it CAN happen (again I showed him from the ground first). As we figured this part out, our HI and SI improved and we were able to start to add power to both, then it was easier to get him to understand that if I stepped to the inside of the SI after establishing proper bend in the SI and used my outside thigh more or less like I was doing the HP with my seat/legs and kept the inside rein open for him so that he wasn’t getting blocked it was easier for me to keep the bend of the half pass and do the half pass even to the right…I of course would throw in a 10 meter circle or 8 meter volte if needed to re-establish the pieces/mechanics if I felt like I was losing the bend.

For my guy, the issue was (and is) really his right shoulder more than not knowing how to bend. He has a tendency to want to collapse his shoulder and not abduct the right fore. To address this issue I have to actually throw in leg yield and counter bending on that (right) side then go back to what I really want because before I can have proper bend and movement in the desire direction I need to have him keep all four posts on all four corners, not squish or collapse his right shoulder towards his midline and thus refuse to use it correctly. He’s so much better now than he was but it has taken a lot of persistent work, breaking things down and then stringing them back together to perform the movement otherwise I end up riding a broom stick or a balled up stuck critter.

[pluvinel]

@exvet

He too has more difficulty bending to the right at all gaits.

I am not a vet, but I recall reading in one of the old “classics” (DeCarpentry, etc) that attributed this “handedness” to exist in most horses and that this preference for one side was the result of how the foal was positioned in the uterus. Perhaps there is medical research to validate what the ODG said.

[exvet]

I think there is a lot to this. I delivered Junior (my Welsh Cob gelding) when he was born. I do remember that he was left foot forward; but, whether or not that has anything to do with how he was positioned in utero I have no idea. He also was the biggest of the the foals his dam had for me with her first, as she was a maiden at that time, having been the smallest. They were full siblings and the other two fillies, neither having the exact same issue but all 3 very short coupled.

[lorilu]

@enjoytheride

my trainer said “do less.”

Yes, Ive been told this by my trainer as well. Former horse was more of a push horse and its hard for me to do less.

@pluvinel

In a very sensitive horse, “doing less” means just that, do more “nothing” other than think about what you want. A sensitive horse understands. Put the movement in your body.

Today I watched my trainer ride. He had two days off because she was at a show and I had other commitments. She did get some HP, lacking enough bend but no canter. When I asked, she said she just did nothing and invited him to go over… especially no inside leg because that’s the canter cue.

@exvet, thanks. yes. Lots to unpack in your post. thanks. My guy also falls on his right shoulder and needs work abducting both front legs. Shoulder is nice and fairly free forward, but not to the side. I do leg stretches after we ride…
@pluvinel I have also heard that, and also the placement of the cecum interfering with bend.

Thanks everyone.
Today was so much better, even trainer was surprised. Tomorrow I’ll try to get something…

[dotneko]

Remember also that the leg aids for half pass are ‘pulsing’. When the outside hind is leaving the ground, your outside leg asks him over and your inside legs job is… neutrality. Your inside leg is to receive on the bearing phase and provide a balance point. Not both legs on at once.
So, outside leg is on, then neutral. Inside leg is neutral then ‘thats as far over as you need to go’. In the same rhythm as outside hind, inside hind.

[pluvinel]

@lorilu

Tomorrow I’ll try to get something…

No…no…no…no. This is an example of trying too hard. Do not go in with a goal. Go in with the thought that you are going to move sideways, then FEEL how the horse responds under you.

Focus on FEEL. Take time to listen to what the horse is saying.

[endlessclimb]

Lots of good advice here, but I’m very surprised anyone would ask for HP before HI is confirmed. @sascha said something like “it’s like a shoulder in, really”, but to me it’s more like a HI for the aids.

Regardless, I want both SI and HI to be pretty darn good before I ask for HP.

[sascha]

@endlessclimb

@sascha said something like “it’s like a shoulder in, really”, but to me it’s more like a HI for the aids.

Sort of - my point was that the actual aids for SI and HI are the same in terms of how you use your legs, hands, even seat - it’s a matter of how much of each and the riders intent that make the difference whether the horse is travelling in SI or HI/HP.

I was thinking about this thread last night while doing my horse’s most hated exercise - trot, canter, trot transitions. She’d rather not go back to Kindergarten, tyvm lol. “This is a BABY exercise. We should only do WALK, canter, WALK!” Anyway, when I was pretty new to riding, let alone dressage, I was very lucky to take weekly lessons plus “Saturday Club” at the stable I rode at. Extra lucky was that there were serious dressage riders including a very well-known judge who boarded there and who were roped in to give occasional mini clinics at Saturday Club.

One of the mini clinics that really sticks out for me was the longeing clinic they held. Not only did we learn how to longe properly, but we got longed on various school ponies. The Most Important Exercise I ever learned was during that clinic. We had to walk trot and canter, both up and down transitions, with no reins and no help from the person longeing. That really cemented into my brain that ANY* horse can follow the lead from a seat changing its motion AND most of all - we are responsible for maintaining the gait we want with our seat no matter what the rest of our body/aids are doing or whether the horse is saying, “This would be a lot easier if we just changed gait.”

*The school horses were Joe Bought At Auction Grade Horse types who gave lessons to riders of all levels from rank beginner up and mostly were ridden hunt seat by more advanced riders, they were not schoolmasters of any type, let alone dressage schoolmasters!

[endlessclimb]

I often ride my Old Man with nothing - no halter, no neck rope - can wtc, flying changes, and LY without anything on his face. I don’t think I could do HP, but that’s our own lack of skill showing up - I’m sure someone better than I does it on the regular!

[anon55755751]

OP, Given how you describe your canter aids, i might experiment with your upper body position. A slight shift up/back from wherever you naturally tend to position yourself as you weight the inside seatbone for the hp could make a big difference to the horse in terms of differentiating from a canter aid.

Exercises: supple the loin and reinforce the aids by switching between hi and ho on bending lines. Add forward and straight between changes whenever possible to make sure he gets the point of connecting over the back in the lateral work.

[CanteringCarrot]

Half pass is haunches in on the diagonal, essentially. This makes more sense than shoulder in, to me. However, I get what is being said about shoulder in aids, to some extent.

I learned a lot about using my body, subtle aids, and how sensitive horses can be through riding Iberians. They are my type. I love them. You do have to have good body control and consciousness. So whenever my horse is or isn’t doing something I have to take a second to really analyze what my body is doing and what I want his body to do. Sometimes one hip is slightly blocked, and once I release that, it changes things. Your body has to allow the horses body to do the movement. Sure you can “force it” but there easier, better, and more harmonious ways.

[blue_heron]

If you have little bend in your short bodied horse, especially the Iberians, you need more length in the topline. Tension affects everything in these guys, more than other types IMO.

I remember having an, ahem, discussion with one of mine last year about where and the angle of our half pass lines (they think they’re smarter than me; sometimes they are). Sometimes it helps to “explain.” We quit the half pass for a week or so and did lots and lots of changes of bend and controlling the shoulders and haunches separately. Travers to leg yield on the wall and shoulder-in to renvers on a line are both excellent. Walk canter transitions within travers, walk pirouettes, and walk/canter voltes are also really helpful. WOW did we unlock a new canter and improve the trot during that week. Finding some greater length in the neck and breaking up the tension behind the saddle helped everything, and we were much more biddable when we went back to half pass.

[blue_heron]

@sascha

Sort of - my point was that the actual aids for SI and HI are the same in terms of how you use your legs, hands, even seat - it’s a matter of how much of each and the riders intent that make the difference whether the horse is travelling in SI or HI/HP.

Could you elaborate? I do not ride these two the same at all.

[CanteringCarrot]

@blue_heron

If you have little bend in your short bodied horse, especially the Iberians, you need more length in the topline. Tension affects everything in these guys, more than other types IMO.

I remember having an, ahem, discussion with one of mine last year about where and the angle of our half pass lines (they think they’re smarter than me; sometimes they are). Sometimes it helps to “explain.” We quit the half pass for a week or so and did lots and lots of changes of bend and controlling the shoulders and haunches separately. Travers to leg yield on the wall and shoulder-in to renvers on a line are both excellent. Walk canter transitions within travers, walk pirouettes, and walk/canter voltes are also really helpful. WOW did we unlock a new canter and improve the trot during that week. Finding some greater length in the neck and breaking up the tension behind the saddle helped everything, and we were much more biddable when we went back to half pass.

Yep! Sometimes working on the half pass/movement does not mean doing the actual half pass/movement.

[sascha]

@blue_heron

Could you elaborate? I do not ride these two the same at all.

Sure - think about your aids. Where is your outside leg? Where is your inside leg? Where is your inside seat bone? What is your inside hand doing? What is your outside hand doing? They are basically doing all the same in SI and in HP, but the amount of each is slightly different.

Like baking different kinds of cakes - they all take some kind of fat, eggs, sugar and flour, but the texture and taste can be vastly different depending on proportions of those ingredients.

[Janet]

@endlessclimb

…I’m very surprised anyone would ask for HP before HI is confirmed…

I want both SI and HI to be pretty darn good before I ask for HP.

Same here. Half pass is basically haunches in on a diagonal line. I would work on perfecting the haunches in before even attempting a half pass.

Also, I would perfect both haunches in and half pass at a walk before asking for half pass at a trot.

Once the walk half pass is really confirmed, I would work on lots of walk-trot-walk transitions within haunches in, and then within half pass.

[blue_heron]

I mean… with this logic the aids for everything is the same. My hand, leg, and body position are not the same in haunches in vs. shoulder in.

[sascha]

Yup, basically the bending aids are the same no matter which direction you’re headed laterally.

Why is your hand position different in HI and SI? Why are your leg and body positions different? Are they apples and orangutans or needles and pins?

If they’re “needles and pins” close to each other, that’s what I’m talking about. If they’re not, I can almost guarantee that you’re putting way too much physical effort into riding your horse