Canter vs Trot Half Pass, Iberian worker-bee type

[lorilu]

I have tried everything I know. Out of a corner. Out of a circle. From the rail, from a 1/2 circle to the CL… Classic inside leg-outside rein - results in canter. Starting sort of leg-yieldy then introducing bind - canters. Using inside rein and outside leg - canter. Being SUPER careful about my leg placement… doesnt matter. Weight inside - canter. Weight on outside… doesnt go sideways.
He will leg yield head to the wall. I can get some haunches-in (very short body, so not much bend). SI is fine.
I know he has a HP, and i know what he ahs needs more bend. I jsut CANNOT get it in sitting trot (nor usually in posting trot…)

Does anyone have an idea? Trainer has also run out of ideas…

[Jealoushe]

Have you tried going across the diagonal and adding haunches in on that?

[Lusoluv]

If horse has a solid travers, turn it on at A or C, then keep it on the diagonal.

[CanteringCarrot]

With these types, as you know, you have to be dead on with your body, and even your thoughts! My PRE was baffled by half pass in the beginning, but we sorted it out.

Here’s a few things that may or may not apply:

1. Talk to him. With these types, even though they don’t grasp the English language (because horse), talking them through exactly what you want them to do comforts them and also keeps you focused on what it is that you want. It can be both calming and focusing for both horse and rider. Sounds simple, but it actually can work.

2. Make sure your body is staying in trot. Fully.

3. Half halts.

4. When you feel the canter about to start walk. Then pick up the trot again and continue. Or when he does canter, bring him back to a walk and do some haunches in wherever you are. Sometimes if you bring them back to walk and show them the basics of what you want, it helps (some horses).

5. Start with very little bend, a baby half pass, and go from there. Don’t stress the bend yet. Build up to it. Start at a longer/lesser angle too. Don’t make it too sideways at first.

6. Do not forget to reward profusely even if it’s just a step or a few steps that are correct. We often spend too much time showing them what we don’t want that we neglect to show them what we do want.

Just a few things I thought of off the top of my head.

[pluvinel]

@lorilu

Does anyone have an idea? Trainer has also run out of ideas…

I am confused. Perhaps your horse is too. Are you trying to do HP? You say “I know he has a HP”…but then say “he needs more bend”…how do you know he needs more bend if he is not doing HP?

[2tempe]

Re jealoushe’s suggestion yes, but would add that it is helpful to have a visible line in the footing or a couple of ground poles to follow so you can pretend that is the rail. Try setting up haunches in on the rail for a few steps, then turn shoulders onto the diagonal line (hopefully keeping the haunches in). If you can get even a few steps on the diagonal, stop and praise. Lastly with my lusitano I have to be careful I dont lean in the direction of the 1/2 pass. If I do, he lays on the shoulder and the haunches get left behind.

Also re posting trot, I have been told it is better to post on the wrong diagonal in the half pass.

Last, and I dont know if this will help, but: try doing the 1/2 pass at the walk. If you can get at least a baby one, it gives you time to see what aids or combination of aids works and it gives the horse a bit more time to process. My Lusi is 21 and I do a longish walk warm up with him, including leg yields, shoulder in and 1/2 pass. I found that in addition to loosening his body, it actually made me more conscious of what my parts were doing.

[Huntin_Pony]

You say, “I can get some haunches-in” which suggests maybe this is not confirmed and easy. If that’s the case, you should work on haunches-in, shoulder-in and renvers until they are easy and you can switch between these positions.

Speaking of positions, you mention your leg position but not your upper body. IME it’s important not only that your lower body and legs are correct but that your shoulders “lead” the horse’s shoulders in the desired direction (i.e., on the diagonal line).

Otherwise, I agree with earlier posters especially on these points - once you have haunches-in you can turn onto the diagonal straight then ask for haunches-in. Second, make sure your body is staying in trot AND following. Third, if he canters make a soft correction without emotion.

As long as you stay relaxed and help your horse understand what you want and reward him for trying, it will come - in time.

[pluvinel]

@Huntin_Pony

Speaking of positions, you mention your leg position but not your upper body. IME it’s important not only that your lower body and legs are correct but that your shoulders “lead” the horse’s shoulders in the desired direction (i.e., on the diagonal line).

With a very sensitive horse this is absolutely correct. I would bet OP is trying too hard and doing too much.

Where are your shoulders? Are you relaxed or stiff?

[sascha]

Get thee onto a 20m square. 1 side shoulder in, 1 side travers, 2 sides shoulder in, 2 sides travers. Once you (think) you have it, exaggerate the travers to a really open 4 tracks. Rinse repeat until you both get that you’re just changing his body position and bend and it becomes easy. Don’t fart around with your weight. Make your leg and rein aids as small as possible with the goal to make them smaller and smaller.

Once that is on the way to beautiful and it’s feeling easy hit the long sides with shoulder in to renvers to shoulder in. Make sure the shoulder in is an exaggerated 4 tracks so the renvers is also exaggerated 4 tracks.

Make some full passes in walk - allow transitions to trot if they happen (but not to canter obviously).

Finally, go onto the long diagonal and make a shoulder in, gradually turn his body to travers on the diagonal, get a few steps and go back to shoulder in, finish the diagonal and repeat the other way.

This might take a week. It might take months. It will give you a very solid trot half pass.

Oh, also, throw in some increasing and decreasing the gait in shoulder in on the long and short sides. By some I mean a few strides - spend the entire long side speeding up and slowing down/lengthening and collecting. This will instill the possibility of adjustment within a known movement, during collection, while bent.

Note, the exaggerated angle does two things. It first pushes past collection allowing freer movement and second, it allows both of you to realize that sideways is fun “Whee look at us going all sideways!” because it takes some of the difficulty away but fully allows the realization that bend and sideways are possible.

Finally, spend time feeling your own seat during every warm up. If you have an indoor and your horse is safe enough, spend good sections of long sides with your eyes closed feeling how your pelvis moves in walk, trot and canter. During these times, allow a following seat only - don’t influence your horse, just feel. Be sure to feel the lateral pelvic movements as well as the longitudinal movements.

[theresak]

One of the major blockers for my horse, especially in the HP left, was that I was not sitting on the inside seat bone. He’d get a little straight and not go sideways and dump me onto the left seat bone and I’d end up there trying to drive sideways with the outside seat bone. It was such a habit for both of us, I’d have to almost lift my seat off the saddle during the HP and move over to the inside so my right seat bone was connected.

Also, the HP takes a lot more inside leg than I expected to maintain the bend.

[DMK]

@theresak

One of the major blockers for my horse, especially in the HP left, was that I was not sitting on the inside seat bone.

I feel seen.

The good/not good news is all my unevenness that I couldn’t prevent under saddle is ever so slowly being teased out to find the root causes in physical therapy for my back/sciatic pain (ignored for 3 decades tyvm).

The really good news is to paraphrase my trainer, “he happily half passes in both directions even though you are hanging on one side like a monkey”. She was shockingly more kind than that, but I know that’s what she’s was thinking.

[sascha]

Back to share a thing that was shared with me many years ago and has stuck.

If the shoulder in is not correct, it needs more half pass added to it. If the half pass isn’t quite right, it needs more shoulder in added to it.

The long and the short is that the aids are basically the same for both and you can correct things like insufficient bend through the body by adding a bit more of the feel of the half pass. Same thing in half pass. It sounds wrong/stupid, but it’s actually a really great way to clarify and finesse your aids … once you’re to the point where they’re both easy.

[MsM]

I have a baroque-type Morgan who can also get stuck that I MUST mean canter! He was just learning the HP. Working in the walk after he started that did not work for us. The over-collection issue continued and he still tried to canter.
What helped him was re-establishing a more forward trot. Sometimes I did leg yields off the center line. When those were good, I would do LY left, a couple strides straight, LG right. Finally I could do leg yield and carefully change the flexion and get a bit of bend for a HP.
Another exercise that helped was some shoulder-in on the center line. Then s-i to haunches in on the center line, still in as forward a trot as we could manage while still getting the sideways and just a bit of bend. The rocking back and forth kept him focused on the shaping aids. Eventually I could move this to the diagonal and give him the HP idea. He know has quite a good HP. (Once he “gets it” he feels like he invented it!)

With my “worker bee” I couldn’t do much with canter while he was processing this. I had several rides in which I did not canter so we could work on lateral work without him thinking about canter and because once he made a good effort at this I stopped the ride to reward him!

[Mondo]

lorilu - it’s been my experience that the HI on the diagonal is difficult for some people to envision (myself included). I have learned a really great trick to teach the HP that usually prevents the horse from interpreting the outside leg aid as a canter aid. It’s pretty simple: On the rail, leg yield to the quarter line, exaggerating the bend somewhat. At the halfway point, maintain that slightly exaggerated bend toward the rail and ask for “leg yield” back. As long as he is bent toward the rail, and the shoulders are leading slightly, he’s performing a half pass. This works quite easily if the horse is good at LY. I’ve had it work well with horses that are not solid in HI, too. It’s a fun way to teach them HI without the horse and the rider getting all twisted up into a pretzel attempting the HI. Give it a try. Good luck.

[dotneko]

Be sure you are sitting on the bend side. If you are on the outside, then you are asking for canter. Start working on travers in walk. Really think about where your weight is. Before you think about going sideways, you have to have control of the shoulders and haunches going straight.

[Mersidoats]

Can your trainer get the half pass? Can you half-pass at the walk? What is your outside leg doing? Does it swing back, or stay forward? The aids for Half-pass and canter can rhyme, but for the rhythm of your seat, and the intention of your core.

[lorilu]

I have seen him do it. In general his bend is lacking, especially to the right.

[lorilu]

@MsM thanks. That’s a good plan,
@Sasha thanks for the exercise.

Thanks for the reminder about my shoulders.

And jsut a comment that I have done many HI on a variety of horses… and like I said, he has one but being as incredibly short as he is, there isnt much bend. We get it in walk. Often in posting trot.
@Mondo, that’s a great idea. thx
@dotneko, sitting outside is NOT his canter cue. Inside leg at the girth, raise inside hip, outside leg slightly back… He wont canter if Im sitting outside.
@Mersidoats, no, trainer has same problem. Yes, we get a passable one in walk.

[dotneko]

@lorilu

@MsM thanks. That’s a good plan,
@Sasha thanks for the exercise.

Thanks for the reminder about my shoulders.

And jsut a comment that I have done many HI on a variety of horses… and like I said, he has one but being as incredibly short as he is, there isnt much bend. We get it in walk. Often in posting trot.
@Mondo, that’s a great idea. thx
@dotneko, sitting outside is NOT his canter cue. Inside leg at the girth, raise inside hip, outside leg slightly back… He wont canter if Im sitting outside.
@Mersidoats, no, trainer has same problem. Yes, we get a passable one in walk.

Then back to being sure you can control the haunches and the shoulders. Forget about half pass until you can do shoulder in and haunches in well in walk, trot, and canter. Be sure your weight is to the bend not behind the motion. Then try it with haunches leading.

[enjoytheride]

In my dressage lesson yesterday my trainer said “do less.” We would do just enough of the work to get the idea then immediately change before my horse got creative. Can you start half pass then peel off out of it before he canters?