Carolyn Resnick Liberty training and lesson horses?

[Lmabernathy]

So I had a lady contact me about taking lessons and possibly leasing a horse in the future. She came out met me and the horses and scheduled a lesson for the following week. Before her lesson she texted me and asked if we could do a ground work lesson, I said sure I’m fine with that. When she comes for her lesson she tells me she wants to use Carolyn Resnick’s Liberty method she learned at a clinic (using the clinician’s personal horses) I said ok, show me what you’ve been doing. So I am open to learning new things. Now grant it, somethings might be lost in translation from a participant, to the clinician, to Carolyn’s actual method, so if anyone is familiar with it can you please fill me in.

What my student did was take one of my oldie goldie lesson horses, turn him loose in my 150x200 arena and tried to get him to join up or follow her. What my lesson horse did was ground tie and pivot around to watch her as she meandered around the arena before getting tired and dosing off in the sun. Once I saw him going to sleep I suggested getting a different horse. So I got my pocket pony of a 2 year old and brought him out, he followed her around about half a lap and she never asked for anything else so he went to weed eating the arena fence lines.

So by then an hour has passed, I feel like a scam artist for taking this woman’s money and not doing anything and am not real sure about how I feel about this method. Definitely, not using my 2 year old again because at least with this student I feel like all he is going to learn is to be pushy and ignore people. Student is a very petite older lady so I’m trying to figure out what type lesson horse would be a good fit for her and this method.

I know your first question is why in the hell is she coming to me and not a Resnick trainer? I think the first part of this is the clinician she went to doesn’t lease horses and I’m not sure if she teaches individual lessons or only does clinics. Part 2 is I don’t think there are any other people in my area that does this method and has horses for lease that would be suitable mounts for this student. So basically, she picked me because I have suitable riding horses for this student and I’m open minded enough to try to learn this new method along with her.

Now on to my dilemma, the horses that will join up with a perfect stranger (to the horse) and actually be inquisitive enough to follow them around and possibly even trot and canter without smacking them with a crop would not be the same horses that are suitable for this student to ride. The horses I feel like would be good starting horses to ride are very old and slow and ignore 90% of the things going on around them which means they do not spook and they do not accidently trot or canter although trot cant and jump cross rails for someone who will make them. They train assertive riders, If you are not assertive they stand in the middle or mosey along at a walk. Nothing scary, they just teach you to mean it if you ask for something or they are going to walk the whole time including walking over a cross rail.

Now my horses that will join up and “play” on the ground are horses who are hotter or just less dead headed under saddle. I’m not very confident putting a rider her age and build on a horse that sensitive to forward cues, I don’t want her to be intimidated or fall off one (none would buck or anything bad but they are quite fast and i’m not sure she has the muscle strength to pull one up because I’ve never seen her ride.

Suggestions???

[Princess_Sparkles]

Don’t let her use a method you don’t understand and feel comfortable with on your horses???

I’m not sure why this is a question. She is clearly a fairly inexperienced horse person, interpreting a method you don’t use on your horses personally, and apparently not very effectively.

Tell her she can ride and take lessons from you on your horses using methods you use and teach, or she can find somewhere else.

Anything else is a disaster waiting to happen.

[IronwoodFarm]

^This. If she wants to do a specific method, she needs to find a trainer who has experience and certification in that method. In this particular case, the method seems to focus on groundwork only.

I would not be willing to have a student or lessor who wants to do a training method that is wildly divergent from my own program. I have nothing against the variety of other methods out there, but I just don’t do them.

[Sunsets]

Assuming she is interested in riding, and that she’s willing to listen to you and follow your instructions when she’s in the saddle, I’d take her on. For RIDING lessons, not groundwork.

My perspective on this comes from a former border at our barn who was into Carolyn Resnick. She’d still be at our barn, but she moved out of state, so it wasn’t a clash of ideology that drove her out. That said, here are my observations…

She was a lovely, lovely, kind and gentle older lady. Had a little Arabian gelding who she adored and fussed over. And whom she maybe sometimes, when the saddle had been recently fitted, and when the weather was good and the moon was in the right phase, she would ride. At a walk. When no one else was around (we only know she actually climbed in the saddle because we were out on a trail ride and saw her in the ring from a distance)

But that lady came out to the barn almost every single day and fussed over that gelding. She’d do some of the “liberty” stuff with him in the ring (she left all her cavaletti behind which was awesome for the rest of us), she’d try some gentle groundwork stuff with him (and he kind of did walk all over her). But she always let the barn hand do what he needed to do, never made comments about anyone else, and she was super sweet and complimentary to all of us as we struggled with our dressage stuff.

Many times she would just take a chair into her horse’s pasture and sit and read a book for a few hours. I think this is what the Resnick peeps refer to as the “water hole ritual”. Whatever. But it was something she needed and enjoyed.The horses were fine with it, and honestly, she worked miracles with the shy rescued mini who wouldn’t get near people. He’d wander over to her chair and just hang with her for a bit, maybe get some scratches, then wander off again. She became a fixture at the barn, and I really do think the horses got to thinking of her as a rather interesting non-grazing biped who was on pasture-board. My lease mare, who is not super demonstrative, would even whicker a greeting at her when she saw her walk in.

So I guess my point is this: OP, if you wound up with someone reading a paperback in your pasture a few times a week, would it be a problem?:winkgrin:

[Lmabernathy]

I wouldn’t call her inexperienced, she used to own a horse and she at least know enough about horse body language to keep one from nipping or running into her. I’m just wondering if anyone can tell me if this method can be accomplished with a lesson horse that you see once a week?

I feel like I could do any thing with one of my own horses on the ground, but I see them everyday and I am their source of food and water so the are generally pretty interested in what ever it is I’m doing. They also respect momma because I don’t put up with shenanigans around me, they can run around and play and buck on their own time. I like calm and obedient on my time. Just wondering if this method will work for someone with a 1 hour a week commitment or is it meant for someone with their own farm and horses?

If this is not the best method for a lesson student to enjoy creating a bond with a lesson horse, I am quite familiar with several different natural horsemanship trainers how would you go about steering someone to a little different method that will work better with the time constraints of a weekly lesson?

I’ve actually been coming across more and more students who are against traditional training/riding methods. I have another set of students that don’t want to use a bit. Okay my horses will go around in a halter but then they are so timid about using the reins that the horses just wonder off and eat grass. If you want to use a halter then you need to use however many ounces/pounds/tons of pressure it takes to get your point across. Same as with a bit. I don’t know why people are scared to tell horses what to do anymore? Its like they want it to be the horses idea about going for a nice hour ride, all my horses think about is when is dinner lol. I’m venting a little now lol. I really do want these people to enjoy horses I just don’t know how to explain to them tack is only as mean or nice as you make it. A bridle is not an inherently bad thing.

[Lmabernathy]

@Sunsets we were typing at the same time, Thanks for the perspective. I am trying to figure out if there some goal to this method or you really just want to read a book and hope the horses comes to visit for a few mins… I’m guessing that visit is the goal and you don’t really go much farther than the horse deciding when he does or doesn’t want to hang out with you?

I’m okay with that I just wanted reassurance I wasn’t scamming this lady by having her pay for my time in the lesson when the whole point is waiting for the horse to make the first move. I do feel like this will be better in a lease situation than it is in a weekly lesson but time will tell

[Sunsets]

@Lmabernathy

@Sunsets we were typing at the same time, Thanks for the perspective. I am trying to figure out if there some goal to this method or you really just want to read a book and hope the horses comes to visit for a few mins… I’m guessing that visit is the goal and you don’t really go much farther than the horse deciding when he does or doesn’t want to hang out with you?

I’m okay with that I just wanted reassurance I wasn’t scamming this lady by having her pay for my time in the lesson when the whole point is waiting for the horse to make the first move. I do feel like this will be better in a lease situation than it is in a weekly lesson but time will tell

As far as I understand it - yes - the goal is just to enjoy whatever the horse wants to give you. Which is kind of noble and very sweet…and really not MY thing, but, whatever. As long as no one is getting hurt.

I think as long as you are open and honest with what she can accomplish in a lesson, you aren’t scamming her. And do you have any retirees in a back pasture that might appreciate a friend? Might work out for everyone.

[Scribbler]

I ride, and I also do liberty, clicker, trick and agility training “off the side of my desk,” so to speak (that’s a bureaucratic term for when you take on a side project that you squeeze in), in large part because my mare ended up particularly talented (or food motivated :)) at tricks.

There’s certainly a place for just hanging out with your horse in a paddock until he comes up and wants to interact with you, but what OP describes the student doing is rather pointless. On the other hand it’s also fairly harmless, if the horse is already confirmed in his training.

Perhaps if you find the student is harmless, you can give her a riding lesson that focuses on communicating with the horse, and then allow her to hang out in the paddock afterwards free of charge. When I started riding my current horse, I took her for attended turnout after every ride, let her roll, let her do a circuit of the arena hoovering up fallen leaves, and then she would eventually work her way around to me and we would interact a bit, then she obviously wanted to go back and have lunch. It was a very nice and peaceful time getting used to free time with a horse again. And out of that one day I realized that we were starting to develop a code, so that I could tell her to whoa, then walk away, whistle, and she would follow (a sit/stay and come routine).

So I would never discount just spending undirected time with a horse. But for it to be useful, you need to have some tact, feel, and common sense. And I also think it needs to be undirected, exploratory, rather than thinking that some tactic you saw on a video is going to suddenly happen for you and this particular horse.

The big problem with liberty work and ground work is that a certain subset of people are drawn to it because they don’t have the body awareness and confidence and horse sense to be good riders, and don’t want to try learning them for whatever reason. But if you don’t have those skills, then you are not going to get anywhere with liberty and ground work either. Indeed, you need to have better body awareness and timing and feel to do liberty work than to simply ride a trained horse in a simple fashion.

And oh my goodness, is it ever hard to teach timing and feel and posture to a beginner or re-rider who has some deficits there.

My guess is that the clinic uses horses that have some experience of what’s expected of them, and the clinic sets the learners up for success, which is only reasonable. But that doesn’t mean that you can take one clinic and then bumble into a field with someone else’s old lesson pony and suddenly be a horse whisperer.

[Dune]

I was at a barn that decided to change lanes and eventually a whole group of these ladies moved in. They never rode, could barely lead their horses safely and when they did ride it was a liability, lol! Of course they thought the rest of us who rode, went to shows, and dared put a bit in our horses mouths were persecuting our animals. And then they “rescued” a bunch of feral horses and got themselves in over their heads. It was entertaining to watch for awhile, but just got to be too much to stomach…

[LookmaNohands]

Carolyn Resnick has a VERY sound and effective program for liberty training. Your “student” is not applying it properly. She should be sitting in a chair with this horse in a small paddock for hours and doing things with the horse based on the horse’s response to her. She should also be up and walking around a bit too but the program starts with you sitting with the horse for hours as long as you think you can do this safely. The program is NOT for people new to horses or who cannot read a horse’s body language.

Carolyn starting working with wild mustangs as a child and her program stems largely from that experience. I have worked with Carolyn and used her methods. They are outstanding! But you cannot take parts of the program out of context and hope it works.

It would be best if she worked with an instructor on this but they are few and far between.

[findeight]

Why not just tell her what you told us upthread…the horse that you, as a teaching Pro, feel is appropriate for her to ride is not the same horse that is appropriate for her to do whatever it is she thinks she’s doing from the ground.

IIWY, I’d add that although you are always open to new things, you don’t think your barn and horses are a particularly good fit for what she wants to pay to practice with you watching her. Great to be nice but…it’s a business and your time is your source of income. Not to mention possibly untraining something you’d prefer stay installed on your schoolies o who must stay respectful of novice handling or that colt. Watching one wander around that fully trusts and understands humans for an hour seems a waste of time,

Leave her to decide if she wants to continue in your program or find another more suited to her goals.

From what you are sharing, this gal didn’t absorb much of what was actually presented at the clinic.