I would worry that at some point you’re going to encounter a situation where the treat is not enough to elicit a “yes” response. I don’t mind using the treat as the reward for doing what was asked, but I wouldn’t use it as a “see what I’ve got? come on in, sweetie” type thing.
“Get on the wash rack because I asked you to, dude. Great, thanks. Here’s a snack.”
Which is a huge problem with the way the OP has been using treats - as bribery for a giant task (in the horse’s mind) instead of reward for little efforts which the horse comes to realize is not much and treats can be dialled back to zero from one for every little tiny step.
It’s the difference between bribery and training. 
so many people don’t get it.
Sort of like telling a kindergarten kid that they get the gold star for finishing the book but the kid hasn’t learned all of the letters of the alphabet. Kid is going to maybe refuse, or maybe flip through the pages all argy bargy and insist they did finish the book gimme the gold star!
Popping back in because of this memory:
MANY(30+)yrs ago I had a Summer lesson on one of my trainer’s imported 4yo WBs.
This guy was a good 17h+, his barn name was Baby Huey.
After the lesson, I took him in the wash rack, crosstied him & was hosing off sweat, when a barnworker came up, eyes like saucers 
, to tell me “he doesn’t crosstie!”
Uh… Obviously he did.
No fuss, no muss, he was standing quietly having his bath.
My Point:
Part of your horse’s issue could be You.
You “know” he won’t, so he doesn’t.
I’m not claiming you’ll get an Instant Response, but try making yourself as relaxed as possible when you take him in.
As prey animals, horses are incredibly sensitive to our moods/body language.
If you’re the least bit trepidatious (
Big Word), he’ll pick up on that.
Further example:
My TB would sometines be a problem loader.
90% of the time, walk right on.
When I ran into that other 10%, I’d do everything I could to relax myself, " Think Happy Thoughts", act like we had all the time in the World to get on the trailer…
And he’d relax too & get on.
This is an interesting thread, and I’m enjoying all of the responses.
I think I’m equal parts stick and carrot. My horse actually likes being hosed off, but he’s not a fan of the indoor washrack because he’s a bit claustrophobic. There is an outdoor where he’d be more comfortable in terms of environment, but it’s just cold water and he definitely prefers warmer water no matter what the weather is like (and it’s hot and humid as heck here).
He knows when there is a treat in my pocket and is usually much more cooperative about going in when he anticipates reward is coming. Not that he ever outright refuses, he just lags behind and makes me drag him and cluck and swat him with the end of the lead to get him in there. This is his MO whenever he’s not feeling whatever it is I’m asking him to do…he lags behind and drags his feet: “Mooom…I…don’t…wanna…” Rotten creature.
In fact, I’ve been saying for the past couple of weeks that some groundwork is in order to sharpen him up. I’m all for him being relaxed and quiet, but when my shoulder hurts from having to haul him along behind me everywhere we go, that’s absurd. Especially when he’s more than happy to walk along briskly with me if a treat is in my hand or we’re heading to his favorite patch of clover for some hand-grazing.
So, I’m in the “stick” for training (and by “stick” I mean pressure and release), and “carrot” for the reward to responding correctly to the “stick” camp.
Though I admit, I’m tempted to try clicker training with my gelding. He’s a happy-go-lucky, people-lovin’, treat-snarfin’ overgrown dog anyway, so I think it’d be right up his alley. Maybe that’s where I’m going wrong with him. Maybe he needs more carrot and less stick. It takes SO MUCH STICK to get him motivated and very little carrot to achieve the same response. Hmmm.
Continuing the discussion from Carrot or the Stick?:
Carrot or stick? I think both, but use the treat as a reward, not a bribe. For me, the difference between a bribe and a treat is that I don’t show the horse the treat when I ask him to do something. He has to do it just because I say so, and if he doesn’t then I apply pressure and release when he at least tries to do the right thing. When he gets it right, then he gets the treat. I’ve also taught my horses that they only get the treat when they turn their head away from me, not being a pig.
Always remember that horses need a leader, just as much as they need air to breathe and water to drink. You need to be that leader. There’s nothing at all wrong with applying pressure when he says no. He needs to know that you are strong enough to protect him, and you show him that by making him move his feet. When my dominant horse wants my other horse to move over he first pins his ears, and he only asks once. If #2 horse doesn’t move, the dominant horse nips him on the butt. If that doesn’t get a response, a kick is next on the menu. It’s been a long, long time since the #2 horse has needed anything more than pinned ears, and those two horses get along just fine.
I used the same strategy of increasing pressure to establish leadership with the dominant horse, and he knows I am the boss mare. When I want the hay pile I pin my ears and he moves. And this horse is bonded with me. He often walks across the field to say hello when he sees me. In a long winded way, what I’m trying to say is the way to establish a bond with your horse is to always be a firm, fair, strong, and trustworthy leader. And give him some treats for a job well done.
I got a mustang last year who was really uncomfortable about bathing. He’s now completely relaxed and what worked for us was keeping bath time quick and feeling good. Because he was so upset about the wash stall with the drain and concrete, I moved outside to the grass for baths. And yes, plenty of oregano and mint treats from Hilton Herbs. Keep bath time quick and short.
Lots of praise and fun.
Just the other day I decided to do a quick bath in the wash rack and he was just as relaxed as out in the grass.
Good luck and you’ll get there - NO STICKS!
To me it depends. By the time I got my mare she had been through some rough situations and it showed. She was never taught the right way to handle stressful situations and I can’t blame her for that. I used treats with her (and still do) and it has turned her into such a lovely horse to handle. With use of the treats she has learned to trust me, and I rarely “need” the treats anymore (but she still gets them).
I also have worked with many babies that I knew since they came out of the womb. For them … they usually have no excuse. If they say “no” its often just because they are being, you know, a baby. In that case I am not going to set the precedent that they can weasel treats out of me by not doing what they are told. I might give them one as a reward at the very end of the whole training experience but otherwise they have to figure it out.
@PaddockWood, you bring up a good point: It’s important to determine whether the horse is refusing because he’s worried or whether he’s just saying nope, not gonna do that. The worried horse needs time and encouragement to get over his fear, and applying too much pressure will only make it worse. I think OP’s horse is just saying no, because he’s happy enough to enter the wash stall if he’s bribed. A truly worried horse wouldn’t do that.
I was pleasantly surprised how much more amiable my horses became about baths after I put hot water out to the barn.
But I did fill silly for missing something that retrospectively was so obvious.
And I’ll add bath time is surely more fun if it’s warm water. Mine is warm and even if he’s hot I used warm water just cuz it’s not shocking to the body.
And I will add too that while I’ve gotten a lot done - clipping, picking up feet, rasping, bathing, better threshhold about moving vehicles etc, I was still having other issues of him not being forward or moving off well for me.
I have brought in a pro trainer for coaching and to get him under saddle and she is firm and fair. He quickly has become forward and easy. I’ve really noticed how much more willing he’s become as a result of her “do it and do it now” handling.
I do think his year of me that was softer and slower was a great start but now the time has come to make big progress.
I think OP’s horse is just saying no, because he’s happy enough to enter the wash stall if he’s bribed. A truly worried horse wouldn’t do that.
I do think he is worried about entering the wash stall. He shows classic worried behaviors- worried eye, loud snorting, skittering when his feet touch the mats he doesn’t like, extra vigilant when cross-tied there. I think his high food motivation does win him over, but he’s definitely not at ease in there, and that’s something I need to work on. He has an interesting personality type- generally very aloof, interactive and naturally curious, but there are a few things that he seems to strongly dislike/worry him.
Also- I should point out that I’m not a complete pushover when it comes to handling him. He came as a very pushy and mouthy horse, and I’ve spent a lot of time establishing boundaries with him and making him a horse that is safe for nearly anyone to handle. I’m not against correcting bad behavior, especially behavior that could turn dangerous, but I prefer to give my horses the benefit of the doubt and find pain/fear free ways to shape their behavior.
This.
I have no problem with giving a treat if he goes in willingly but just be prepared that treats work until they don’t. Teaching him to enter the wash rack is like teaching a horse to load in a trailer. Until you teach it you are just lucky they go in–until one day they prefer not to.
More thoughts to the OP - I use R+ (treats) intermittently. And are you working on general bravery? Always looking for noises and scary things to approach and reward. Pop an umbrella, carry a flag, walk over a tarp, air compressor going on the workshop side? Let’s go check it out.
I use the word “touch” and my horses know to approach and touch and get a reward. Scary noises happening? Chainsaw etc? Let’s go check it out.
All this helps with everything and the wash stall.
Ok I’m on a roll over there this morning. Coffee kicking in. More opinions and thoughts. In a lifetime with horses - gee 50 yrs now (eeeeeek). I now think of agility dogs doing a course. What do you see? A dog loving working for the human and having the time of its life.
We want that same wanting to work with our horses. Agility dogs didn’t get there with a human using a stick. Now I know there are times with horses where we need that kind of pressure and I do use it - very sparingly.
But the goal? A horse that trusts you, loves being with you, and is brave. And go have fun. That’s the goal. Bright eyed and happy.
I agree it’s only a matter of time before the treats loose their appeal, and you’ll have a complete refusal which may translate to other areas- trailer loading for eg. Luckily, Equitation Science can “cure” that, and many other issues using humane, ethical methods.
If it’s the hose he has trouble with, could you not teach him to enter the wash rack, stand, be rewarded (however you choose) and then bucket wash him (preferably with water of his temperature preference)? Then, as he becomes more relaxed and willing/trained, slowly start introducing the hose: run the hose water on the ground facing away from him - run it on the ground toward him - lift it fetlock height away from him- fetlock height toward him (but not on him) - fetlock height at his hoof/pastern (all 4) - up to knee, etc.
I beg to differ
I do clicker training. If you set it up right, the reward never loses its appeal. The horse buys right into the game. And once a situation becomes a game they lose a lot of their fear.
True clicker is getting the horse to do the activity with only reward. It’s different from getting a horse to do an act with pressure, and then rewarding. One of the things horses learn is that there is no pressure applied in a clicker session, it’s up to them to solve the puzzle and answer the question.
Then you see their brain click in and their eyes light up.
Clicker will not fix everything but it’s really good for many things
But you need to do it a bit systematically to avoid creating a cookie monster.
ES is actually a proponent of clicker training- it’s in their training manual, and actually sell ESI clickers, so you have raised a very valid point!
If it’s used as a bribe instead of a reward for task completed, sure because the horse has not learned anything and it only gets a measly treat for completing an advanced degree without having any of the undergrad work to give them full understanding and confidence in the subject matter.
But,
this is exactly what happens when treats are used properly, on time, for a small task completed and another small task completed and another small task completed. The horse is rewarded for taking baby steps and becomes eager to take more baby steps and soon its confidence level rises to the point that it is ABLE to realize that the handler is being fair, respectful of the horse’s frame of mind/phobias, and that confidence is getting rewarded.
I find clicker training very difficult with horses. I have successfully used it with several dogs, but I just can’t get it right with horses. Not sure why.
By submitting your email, you agree to our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy. You may also receive promotional emails from The Chronicle of the Horse. You can opt out at any time.
For Customers
Company
Terms of Use
