Carrot or the Stick?

[aBayDay]

I have a 5 y.o. gelding who is overall a well behaved citizen. He has some young horse tendencies and some goofy gelding behavior, but overall he is a safe horse to handle. He does not like baths, and therefore resists walking into the wash stall when I want to hose him off. He will plant his feet and be very resistant to walking into the wash stall when I (or anyone else) tries to lead him in. I’ve found that he’s happy enough to follow me into the wash stall if he sees a treat in my hand. I’ll show him the treat, he’ll follow me in, I’ll put him on the cross ties, and then I’ll give him the treat. To me, this seems like a perfectly fair compromise to get him to do something he clearly dislikes. Other people at my barn have called me out as ‘babying’ him, saying he needs to learn to walk in without a treat. They think I should be walking in with a lunge whip or dressage whip and tap him on the butt when he plants his feet.

I understand that there are different schools or horsemanship, and one problem has many different solutions. Am I really breeding an issue with ‘bribery’ vs. using the stick? I want to have a respectful horse, but also want to have a relationship where he enjoys doing things with/for me, not a relationship based on fear. Thoughts?

[Rackonteur]

You know the old saying “You can catch more flies with sugar than you can with vinegar”?
It sounds like you have a good method that works for you and your boy. Ignore the would-be disciplinarians. I bet your guy is glad he belongs to you and not them!

[lenapesadie]

In your situation I say neither.

The treat is simply over riding his discomfort of the wash rack. If it was an introduction to a new task, sure. But after so many repetitions and horse is still balking unless food is involved, we can infer the treat isn’t training here.

The stick is going to do the same thing. Override his discomfort with the wash rack by being more unpleasant.

Caveat 1: you have actually done the treat and enter wash rack many times?
Caveat 2: does the horse balk when being led other places?

So presuming the answers above are yes then no, I would first separate the hosing and the wash rack. Practice hosing him while holding him in a more open space. Practice walking him in and out of wash rack without hosing him. Once both of those are solid you can combine the two.

Warwick Schiller has some excellent free videos about introducing horses to things like hoses and uncomfortable places in an incremental manner without carrots, sticks or carrot sticks.

[NancyM]

I don’t have a problem with giving him “payment” for doing something for you when you ask him to, which otherwise he would not want to do. If your barn friends want to do things differently, so be it. How you treat your horse is none of their business. It sounds like you and your horse have a good understanding of each other, and mutual respect for each other.

[Scribbler]

@aBayDay

I have a 7 y.o. gelding who is overall a well behaved citizen. He has some young horse tendencies and some goofy gelding behavior, but overall he is a safe horse to handle. He does not like baths, and therefore resists walking into the wash stall when I want to hose him off. He will plant his feet and be very resistant to walking into the wash stall when I (or anyone else) tries to lead him in. I’ve found that he’s happy enough to follow me into the wash stall if he sees a treat in my hand. I’ll show him the treat, he’ll follow me in, I’ll put him on the cross ties, and then I’ll give him the treat. To me, this seems like a perfectly fair compromise to get him to do something he clearly dislikes. Other people at my barn have called me out as ‘babying’ him, saying he needs to learn to walk in without a treat. They think I should be walking in with a lunge whip or dressage whip and tap him on the butt when he plants his feet.

I understand that there are different schools or horsemanship, and one problem has many different solutions. Am I really breeding an issue with ‘bribery’ vs. using the stick? I want to have a respectful horse, but also want to have a relationship where he enjoys doing things with/for me, not a relationship based on fear. Thoughts?

I would recommend you look into clicker training and the difference between R plus and R minus. You may find Andrew MacLean’s work on behaviorism useful.

What this will do is give you a useful framework for reward based training in ground work which IMHO is just about miraculous for ease and effectiveness, as you’ve found out. The framework will be helpful to you but will also be very very useful to shut up the barn know-it-alls and barn bullies that want to micromanage your horsemanship. You can learn some catch phrases like “charming the aversive” and “shaping behavior” and “According to Andrew MacLean” or whatever guru you choose. This will make you look less like a silly ammie who is spoiling her horse and more like a genius trainer. By the time you get him to play fetch, pick up a dropped glove and hand it to you in the saddle, and lie down and play dead on cue, no one will ever dare say anything to you again.

You are on the right track but formalizing cues and rewards will help you avoid any pitfalls. Plus it is so much fun for the horse.

[2DogsFarm]

I vote You Do You & ignore the barn biddies telling you otherwise
As long as your horse doesn’t start mugging you for his reward before he’s in the wash stall & on the crossties.

Or…
You can try something I once had to in desperation
At an away from home show, the lines for the two wash stalls were backed up.
Everyone wanted to get their horse showered & be done for the day.
My normally Don’t Care horse decided he couldn’t possibly go in that wash stall.
After a couple false starts, I backed him in.

[luvmyhackney]

You do you with the treat. Seems like cheap payment to me.

Can you figure out what makes the Washrack unpleasant for him?

Just a tidbit as my horse used to hate the Washrack and had to be bribed or dragged in kicking or screaming, then I discovered he has a preferred water temperature of scorching hot. Now he drags me in for his showers.

[Arlomine]

I think a well-rounded horse can, and should be taught to understand both modalities. It’s not an either or situation.

If he bulks going into the wash rack, I would look at that from a more universal standpoint, possibly a problem with leading in general. How does he get into a trailer? Is it easy?

I would also separate water from the wash rack for a little while. I will take a bucket outside and I would First sponge Him off gently, then with more splashing. Then I would hose him if possible out there somewhere away from the wash rack.

In the meantime, I would use the wash rack for grooming and tacking.

Ultimately, I would put everything together, and giving him a little tap with the whip held behind you for encouragement isn’t going to negate the positives of giving him a cookie when he’s in. I can’t tell from how you wrote your op, whether or not he’s really scared or has just decided that he would rather not. I would start to dispense with the cookie as soon as you’re feeling confident that he’s not afraid. And maybe just do the cookie every five or six times he’s in. There have been many studies that indicate that intermittent reward is actually quite a bit more motivating than consistent reward after the task is understood.

[Weezer]

I’m all for treats and patience. Could you feed him his grain in the wash stall periodically? If you just feed him without hosing him, then gradually start playing with water, he may accept the water sooner.

I was a teenager with all the time in the world when I got my first horse. He was a very green 4 year old. I trained him almost exclusively with positive reinforcement. It was a slow process but he became a bomb-proof horse who, on two occasions, put himself in danger to protect me. At the age of 29, he recently did the same for my dog. The “stick-trained” mare I inherited would not hesitate to run people over if she got scared. If you want your horse to be a teammate, you need to coach and support him rather than bully him. Trust your gut and ignore the peanut gallery.

[lenapesadie]

@Arlomine

I think a well-rounded horse can, and should be taught to understand both modalities. It’s not an either or situation.

There is value here. While I wouldn’t chose to start stick training for a behavior that is already difficult for a horse, OP should keep in mind that other people may need to put horse in the wash rack. So ideally, the horse should be trained to go into the wash rack and be hosed comfortably from a standard cue like moving his feet to yield to pressure applied to the lead rope.

[masConfetti]

I also agree with giving the treat.
My mare is 5 and was the same way when I got her over a year ago. Hated the wash stall and wouldn’t go in. I started getting her in with treats and letting her sniff around. I ended up working with a behaviorist for other issues she had/has and she recommended giving a massage and doing relaxation work in the wash stall. Today she goes in the wash stall without an issue. I know she prefers other cross ties but she goes in for me. And yes she still gets a treat, just not every time.

[scislandsprite]

@NancyM

I don’t have a problem with giving him “payment” for doing something for you when you ask him to, which otherwise he would not want to do.

This is how my school of thought is on the matter too. Mine is hesitant about wash stalls too so I used to use food to get her inside the one at my barn. Now that she’s more familiar with it, I’ve swapped over to itching her belly button when she gets into the wash stall since she likes that almost as much as a snack.

Also kind of odd but I wanted to mention it. Mine has a very strong preference for lukewarm/tepid water instead of normal/cold water straight out of the horse. Even if it’s 90 degrees out, she still prefers the slightly warmer water. Maybe that could have something to do with it? I used to board at a barn where the hose water was only cold and that’s also where she started getting more hesitant about the wash stall.

[MadTrotter]

I used to be all in on treats in situations like wash rack and mounting block with my maresy, but she eventually got annoying looking for the treat. Teaching her to stand still and receive said treat politely became another thing to work on, as she would twist around and snuffle if it wasn’t presently exactly promptly.

So I used a long halter and a lunge whip to basically just keep her feet moving, and standing still and hanging out was the reward. Took longer, but pays off in spades. And now I know my horse likes me for more than just my cookies.

But at the end of the day, you know your horse, you do you, as long as you’re safe and happy!

[foggythistle]

I would opt for the treat, but gradually stretching out when you actually give it to eventually feeding it after you exit the wash stall.

[sascha]

In my world, the problem starts at the “I don’t want to” followed by “I won’t.” You’re not going to solve that by waiting until the horse is all the way in and crosstied to give a reward.

If you are going to use rewards to teach, you need to load your pockets up and treat every tiny little positive action you receive from your horse. That starts outside the wash stall. Approach wash stall and stand quietly - treat. Back away a step and stand quietly - treat. Move ahead one step again - treat. Continue step by achingly slow step. One foot on the rubber mat - treat. Give yourself a couple of hours and don’t expect to get all the way in, around and crosstied. You probably will, but don’t expect it. Don’t keep an eye on your watch.

Also in my world - balking gets met with the stick. Quickly, without emotion, and very business like. Once and done then back to one step - treat, etc. Balking can be just too damn dangerous if allowed to escalate. They are horses, they had mom setting them straight when they were tiny foals. They can take a quick “nip” from a human with lasting positive effects and no lasting negative effects.

[aBayDay]

Thanks for all of the responses! The common sentiment seems to be that the treats aren’t going to hurt in the short term, but training needs to happen in the long term to make the wash rack a place he enters without issue, and I 100% agree. His issue with the wash rack is that he hates getting hosed down. We have hot water at my barn, and turning the temp up certainly helps, but I don’t think it’s ever going to be something he enjoys. He also hates getting sprayed with anything out of a spray bottle- but will stand and tolerate it now. He is a very food motivated horse, so I think it would be easy enough to get him comfortable going into the wash rack if we practiced several times a day for a week or so, but there is no other place to hose him down at my current place, and he gets real gross in the summer. Still, it’s something I’ll aim to do when possible. Someone mentioned the fact that it won’t always be me leading him in with a treat- it could be a trainer, a working student, a barn worker, and that is a really good point. I don’t want anyone to encounter a problem and over correct him, so I better put the time in now to get him comfortable entering the wash rack without a treat so that situation doesn’t occur. He is a very food motivated horse, and we have actually done some clicker training in the past, so it would likely be easy to start that up again.

[aBayDay]

I can’t tell from how you wrote your op, whether or not he’s really scared or has just decided that he would rather not.

I think it’s a bit of both. It was a known ‘issue’ when I bought him- the vet doing his PPE wanted him in the wash rack to do his eye exam and it took much encouragement for him to walk in. When I bought him and took him into the wash rack for the first time at the new barn, he had no issues. Once he learned that the area = hosing down, he started getting reluctant to enter. I think your idea of making the wash rack a happy place without hosing for a while is a great idea.

[Scribbler]

Honestly I think most horses have some opinions about getting hosed down but they learn to enjoy it eventually. Finding the right temperature helps. Also going in small steps. Just wash the ankles. The knees. Etc. Also never doing anything that freaks them out like spraying the face if that bothers them. My mare is very very good but I had to carefully bring her back to being calm about fly spray after someone else stupidly sprayed her face. Now she trusts me to spray her throat without getting it in her eyes. You need to build trust with your horse that you aren’t going to violate his boundaries.

“Charming the aversive” just means that you take something a horse is averse to, like girth or hose or whatever, and create positive associations with it, often through treats. IME it works wonderfully with all the things that are minor annoyances to a horse, but not at all with things that are truly painful scary or really exciting. And that’s fantastic! If my mare will stop biting my buttock and smile for a treat during girthing, I know she can’t be in that much pain from the girth.

[Pico_Banana]

Also take advantage of this hot weather to make a shower something he enjoys. I have a mare who hates showers, regardless of where given. Warm water helps for sure but she still hates them. The only time she enjoys them is when she’s hot and sweaty and a lukewarm rinse off actually feels good.

[Weezer]

I like this approach: the options are to move constantly, or stand quietly in the wash stall. No force involved.I used a similar approach to train my horse to load on a trailer.