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cart balance - unlevel shafts question

Driving
#1

Ok, so i thought i did good buying my new cart for my mini, but i hadnt really been able to step away from him when he’s hitched to really see if i was level or not, it all seemed like it when standing right next to him, but i have felt that the cart tipped back just a tiny bit. So i hitched him last night to take some photos while my husband had some spare time.

We do tip back, my shafts are not level.

Pics:
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs081.snc4/35390_405045637658_593242658_4620980_1848944_n.jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs110.snc4/35873_405045522658_593242658_4620971_7173783_n.jpg

The shafts adjust up or down some. So my question for those that are good with balancing carts, If i adjust my shafts to tip up MORE, i can level the body of the cart. But would this put too much weight on the saddle? Or cause things to bounce more than they already do? (it is a bit bouncier than the old cart that fell apart, and yes, it’s those darn spoked wheels, but i couldnt find one with better wheels-that i could afford budget being under 1k, and at least they are thicker gauge spokes…)

We do plan on shortening the shafts about 3-4", my husband just needs a different tool to cut the metal. It is “ok” right now, but when he turns, if he tries to just turn his neck, instead of really engaging the hind end (and we are still learning, he’s been driving since the first of the year, but had a 2 month break while i found a new cart) the shaft digs into his neck, i had to buy trace extenders as it is, but everything is on its last hole and i have no more give anywhere.

I would say, if i were replying to this thread, to lower the shaft tugs a couple inches and the cart would do much better… But that’s as low as they go. And lower than a couple inches (which it probably needs more like 4-5" to be level) starts getting the shafts too low on the body of the pony.

This cart is also the one i posted about not fitting me quite right, i can just barely touch the floor and the front “dash” with my toe, and thats if i dont rest against the back rest, so i still need to do some adjusting there, either add in some boards to make the floor a tad closer to my feet or something. I can not change raise/lower the seat at all, or move it in any way. And i do need to come up with something between the seat bottom/back as it’s such a big gap my son could slip right out it.

I really only pleasure drive, and mostly on flat roads. BUT, i would like to start taking this pony for some away from home trail drives, and i dont want him to struggle more with this cart than he has to.

Would love any advice. This has all been incredibly frustrating! At least everything for my cob mare has worked out beautifully!

(And yes, one of these days we need a noseband, his bridle didnt come with one and i havent found one yet.) His harness is a mix between A and B size mini harness, but more A parts than anything, i think only the bridle and the strap down spine is B. “I” thought the B size breeching fit him better, but the harness maker who fit him said the A did, i took his advice being new to this. The breastcollar and saddle are on the last holes on everything, but the B size didnt fit him at all. It was really a pain to fit this little sucker! He is 38".)

Sorry for my really long posts!

#2

I feel your pain! My much more expensive cart is still a bear to balance, though it is growing on me.

You’ve got a lot of issues here! It seems to me as though neither harness nor cart is correct for your pony.

Easy stuff first: the noseband is a quick fix, at least in the short run. I use a black leather dog collar on one of my driving bridles! Just thread it through the loop formed by the cheekpieces above the bit. It serves to keep the blinkers from popping away from the eyes.

It’s hard to tell from your photographs, but it actually looks to me as though your feet are nicely placed on the floor? If you really feel as though you are stretching, the traditional method is to make a “cricket” – kind of like a kneeling bench in C of E churches – to give you a higher rest for your feet.

Now, for the balance. Those shafts are just too high, and I’m not so sure I’d be cutting anything off the length of them until I had them balanced correctly – or as correctly as possible. I wonder if rather than cutting them you could bend them, like gig shafts? Just a thought.

You can balance just about any 2-wheeled cart by dint of leaning forward or back, but as you’ve already discovered, shafts that are too high pose serious problems. If you draw a horizontal line from the singletree forward, parallel to the ground, the tip of that line would be several inches below the point of your lovely little lad’s shoulder – way too low. The cart is just too low to the ground.

If you could lower the tugs to split the difference it would help. Those tug straps look too short to me. Even a level shaft passing through the tugs at their current height would be well above the point of the shoulder – too high!

So you’ve got shafts that are too low and tugs that are too high. I think I’d be going back to both harness maker and cart maker and saying nope, this is not going to work, help me fix it.

Hopefully somebody will have a better answer.

#3

I know mysparrow, it all sucks, and the only “help” i’ve got are from dealers who want money. The cart was bought at an auction, it was the best of what i could find after a 2 month search in my price range, and the biggest of the “mini” carts, anything bigger was suited for something in the 12h range, and most the mini carts were for SMALL minis, they had a few mini wagons, but again, even they were designed for smaller.

The harness dealer was at the same auction, day 1 of auction, i bought the B size harness, took it home and realized that it was simply too big with no way to add enough holes to make it work, but pieces of it did seem to look better on the pony. Day 2 of auction, i threw the pony in the trailer and hauled him 2hrs to be fit by the harness dealer and didnt get just a worker, i got the owner of the business to help me. This current configuration is what he set me up with and while explaining and comparing he seemed to make sense.

I was going to order a harness from a different company, but i was really scared, knowing how he’s a hard to fit kind of guy, that i would be mailing back pieces to no end. Thus i wanted to look at it in person, have it fit to him, etc. I really tried to do right.

I totally cant sell this get up, take a loss, and buy all new right now. My husband is losing his job Oct 1st and new job options are looking like we will go 3+ months without pay. There is NO extra income right now. I’m even selling off some of my young female aussies (a couple i just put titles on this year and had really high hopes for in my breeding program) just to survive that time frame with no pay.

So as it is, what kind of “damage” am i going to do to my pony driving him down the roads? I can ditch the idea of trail driving him if taking him on hills is going to be too much.

ETA - i’m only 5’3 and my pants come to my toes… :slight_smile: So though it looks like my feet are flat on the floor, they are just touching, more so really just the ball of my foot and i can get my first three toes on the dash to “brace” for balance, but that’s not if i scoot back the 2" to touch the seat back, so frankly, there is no bracing if i needed it. I have to rely on balance alone to stay on the thing. A 2x6 on the floor will put my feet alright, but not to touch the dash. I was going to add a cushion to the seat back so i didnt have to go back so far to touch it, just havent done it yet.

#4

I seriously do not think this is so very bad ~ some harness adjustments perhaps as shafts are high but I do not recommend shortening the shafts ~ all in all looks like a pretty good set-up . YES ~ I do drive daily and with three different carts ~ horses and ponies… your mini is adorable BTW ~

#5

OK looked again ~ still don’t see what the major concern is on your sitting in the cart scoot up= forward ~ you should not be bracing or touching the back of the cart nor needing to BRACE yourself with your feet… please tell me again ? :confused: All in all this is fixable no need to replace sell or anything IMHO ~

#6

Thanks ZuZu, i know the pony doesnt seem to mind any of it, i just didnt know if i was putting too much pressure on the saddle, or too much stress on pony if i tried to do more than stay on flat roads.

I’m thinking about the “bracing” i might need if i were to ride on trails, up and down hills, through water, etc… If i were to put my feet on the floor and not touch the seat back, there isnt much of anything to balance myself with if i were bounced around, and the cart does bounce quite a bit more than my one that fell apart. Quite frankly, even at a brisk trot on a flat road, i feel like a kid that cant touch the floor, going airborn with the bounce and holding myself on with the reins! Ok, so it’s not that bad, but i really just barely touch that darn floor, and i like one foot foward on the “dash” if i get bounced sideways some, just something to keep me more stable.

Or if i had a runaway type of situation and needed to put a foot on the dash and lean back to put some umph into my whoa cue, i couldnt. Tater is a VERY good boy and stops by voice, but you never know, i like to be prepared. I feel MUCH more secure in my cob’s cart which i can touch the floor and rest on the seat back, one foot on the dash, relax some and enjoy the ride, knowing my body is in position to keep me where i am if pony does something silly.

Hope that explains my “bracing”, not saying i am braced or tense when i drive at all, just in a position to be ready for the worst.

#7

If you have a problem you point the pony towards a solid object and say “whoa” and you will stop ~ do not have a runaway ~ simply find and head towards the FIRST solid wall ~ fence ~ tree he will stop… as far as bracing on rough course sit up on edge of seat and position your feet to brace for stability ~ yes ! one on floor and one on dash area ~ hope this helps. Quite honestly ~ you have a workable set-up ~ just needs some minor tweaking IMHO. ENJOY !!!

#8

Well, Zuzu, interesting advice – and I suspect there will be many variations on the theme.

I’ve had a runaway with no solid objects for miles. I’ve also watched a horse ridden toward a solid object with whip hollering Whoa!, and seen that horse run slam into the wall and kill itself. I’ve also been able to avert bad situations by being able to apply a little more body weight to the equation, planting feet on floor. And I’ve been told by one top trainer to relax while driving, let my back rest on the back rest (that’s what it’s there for, he said). And another top coach told me to always drive with my feet in the same location – both on dash or both on floor. Your experience is obviously different, and we all accommodate our particular realities.

I think this cart and harness can be improved to the better driving happiness of whip and equine.

And I absolutely agreee — ENJOY!

#9

Yes, I have seen horses being ridden who will run right into a solid post ,:eek: BUT my first advice is to make sure the horse pony is trained properly ~ tacked/harnessed properly and the rider /driver has been properly “schooled” as well. That being said any animal who is not consistent and/or reliable really should be not driven by an amateur without a professional in attendance. IMHO ~ My advice about a “run~away” is a basic idea of getting the horse/pony stopped as quickly as possible. Circling being another method when in a wide open space… My advice about her feet - I do believe she may be sitting too far back thus removing her feet from the floor like a child sitting in a big chair and “Edith Ann” Lily Tomlin comes to mind :lol::smiley: ~ so if she is - short-legged :confused: I suggested moving forward on the seat & not relaxing her back on the back ~ rather moving so her feet would be on the floor for stabilty and balance. The feet apart idea is suggested because of simple basic body mechanics - one is more “solid” with feet slightly apart and one slightly ahead of the other -I do honestly believe the driver :yes: any driver needs their feet firmly planted on the floor of the cart for any number of safety benefits. Hope this clarifies some of my suggestions with some reasoning and experience behind them.I do think this cart/harness can be adjusted to this mini and new equipment /cart are not needed . Lastly ~ I send Jingles that this driver can tweak this equipment and enjoy her adorable mini…:cool::smiley:

#10

Oh dont worry, i totally enjoy him! He’s a blast and loaded with bratty pony syndrom, but he is a work a holic too. He’s showed me how minis can be adicting, though he will probably be my only one unless i can ever find a big mini to match him for a team. Wouldnt they be so cute!

Thanks everyone who wrote me and posted here for the suggestions, i’ll work at tweaking what i’ve got since it’s my only option right now. It’s been so blasted hot, it’s not like we’ve been out to play much anyway!

Any other ideas at how to modify what i’ve got, i would love to hear them!

Frankly, with a cart involved, i would much rather keep a runaway out in the open than aim for objects unless that was a last ditch effort. I could see my too smart for their own good ponies darting left or right at the last minute and catching a shaft/wheel on a tree or something or turn HARD and flip me into whatever i was aiming at, smash my cart to bits, and give my runaway an experience they’ll never come back from. Knock on wood, we wont have that issue, but i do want to feel secure in my cart to take care of myself to ride it out! :slight_smile: I’ll play with sitting more forward and see how i feel. I dont touch the seat back now, but for a relaxing ride, it would be more comfortable if i could.

I have long legs, believe it or not… But i think my cart was made for a giant. :slight_smile:

#11

I’m kind of confused about your tugs. Can they or can they not be lowered a few inches? If they can be, try that. If not, maybe you just need a new saddle where the tugs can get lower - not a whole harness.

I also would not cut those shafts. They bother her in turns because they’re too hige and hit her neck. When you get them lowered, I bet they’ll be fine. A little curve would be nice, but I don’t know how you would accomplish that nicely w/o crimping the shafts.

Is there room for larger wheels? I think I saw a fender, which might interfere… Of course I have no idea what wheels cost, and the cart looks new, so an added expense.

#12

Those are the largest neumatic wheels you can buy i think, at least the larges i could find on a mini cart anywhere. Cart does have fenders, i could remove them, but i kind of liked them if i were taking him down the trail, didnt want to get a sappling caught in a wheel or something if the trail got tight. Wheels are EXPENSIVE, might as well buy a new cart frankly. Which is what i did when the old cart busted and one wheel crushed in, this is it’s replacement cart.

My tugs will not go lower. The next size up saddle was WAY large. One Cother suggested taking my current saddle to a saddle repair shop and have the strap to the tug loop replaced with a longer one. Which should be a cheap fix. I was just concerned if the shaft would then be too low on the pony’s body. But yes, with the shafts as they are, they hit his neck on the turns. Not so much at all if he uses his hind end, but we do still get the snake neck turns instead of using our whole body yet.

A metal shop might be able to curve my shafts without killing them. But i dont know of one and i dont know what it would cost. I’m REALLY strapped right now with no job come Oct… So i’ve got to go the cheapest route i can to fix what i’ve got so we can enjoy the very few cool evenings to play.

#13

He’s a cutie.

Please consider wearing a helmet. We’d all love to see you continue to post here for years to come.

Just my 2 cents. :yes:

#14

The COTH-er who gave you this advice knew what she was talking about. You don’t need a new harness saddle, just longer straps from saddle to shaft loops, with plenty of adjustment up and down. You should then be able to adjust them so that the shafts are more level. That would be my initial approach to the problem and then you can think about other fixes that might or might not be needed Sometimes the simplest (read: cheapest) solution is the best.:yes:

#15

Cart balance

I too do not see a problem with this carts attitude. Color yes, attitude no… :slight_smile:
A very slight tip back, and that is all it is, is fine for this set-up. Wish I saw more like this at times.

Also I would politely dissent regarding using your backrest for the type of driving you are doing. We use full a backrest and encourage its use as most of our applications are trail/ pleasure driving. However even in CDE you have to use the backrest on one rig, as its use is integral to the functioning of the rest of the cart.

Ain’t nobody grading you so relax while you pleasure drive, eh?

I think overall you did well. The rest is tweaking and tuning.

Bb
Graham Carriage Works

#16

I had been wanting to post on how much I LIKE the color:D, although it was not really the important factor in the discussion.
That’s just me…I love bright colors:).

#17

It looks as though your cart body tips back just a bit, which would make you feel less secure in the seat. When you get the tug loops lengthened and the shaft ends down a few inches it will naturally help you get your feet on the floor. Right now you have a slight reverse wedge seat.

You could use pieces of plywood with 1x1 or 2x2 spacers screwed onto it, drill holes in each corner, and then wire it onto the the frame to improve your footing. Use shiny 12 ga. electric fence wire so no one can accuse you of making baling wire fixes. lol

The seat cushions on my cart are just plywood with a piece of foam and then vinyl folded and stapled at the back. Maybe you could find suitable materials at a thrift store (chair cushions) to make another back cushion for your son. Drill holes through the pipes and screw the back rest to the frame.

And you can safely bend pipe by filling it with sand then bending it against a curved object. Although I don’t think the shafts need to be bent to fix your minor problems with the cart set-up.

#18

I will start with I know little to nothing about driving.
However I would be hesitant to steer a run-away horse/cart into something. Mind you I used to run my first horse into big puffy pine trees to stop him.

The BO at one farm I used to board at was on a wagon and the pair of Percheron mares bolted. The horse ran down a road and crossed another road and into a development. They eventually ran into the side of a house and left a hole in the side of the garage- just imagine the cartoon result and that is what you got.
The BO fell out of the wagon got tangled in the reins and a neighbor was able to grab and stop the horses before she got dragged.

She had to go knock on the home-owners door. They were watching TV and thought the load boom and house shaking was an earthquake. (Yes, we are in PA. We do not have many earthquakes)

Horses and BO were all okay.

But that would make me think twice before running a horse into anything.

I wish I could find the article- there were some cool pictures.

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