Catherine Haddad's latest editorial

what does any of this have to do with her apparent unwillingness ( NO TIME!)to tell organizers beforehand the level of rider she’d like to teach?

‘FEI riders only’ or ‘only riders above x level’- ought to weed out a lot of the riffraffy snails. Takes too much time to say that? lol

No, she does not do that because then the clinics might not be filled.

Her rant is about her frustration that more upper level riders and trainers don’t come to her clinics. She thinks someone should “SEND” them to her!!??

Sigh. That’s life in the free market.

The other point about the need for a better system in NA to develop riders and trainers is not a news flash. Everyone knows that already.

[QUOTE=Nojacketrequired;7108007]
Could it not be that the trainers are LEARNING from the clinician more and different techniques with which to teach these students once the clinician is gone? She states that “Our trainers need more knowledge…”, well how better to get it that than to watch a more knowledgeable instructor work with and improve their own students ?

NJR[/QUOTE]
I don’t understand why so few people see this. Every time one of my trainer’s students rides with a clinician, whether it’s at training level or FEI, she watches and learns what works FOR THOSE STUDENTS/HORSES. Therefore, I have little need for someone like Ms. Haddad. But if Ms. Haddad is so unhappy with the level of riding in this country, why is she unwilling to help those who cannot otherwise get good training?

[QUOTE=suzy;7108476]
My name IS Suzy. I have said nothing that could negatively impact CHS’s reputation. That’s the difference.[/QUOTE]

So you’re just Suzy, with one name like Cher?

I haven’t said anything unwarranted that would hurt her reputation. She’s done enough damage all by herself, which she can undo by just teaching and doing a good job of it.

Btw Suzy I had you on ignore for a while and wish I’d left you there. I put you on ignore in the first place because of the nasty way you reacted when people commented on dressage issues, as though they are not allowed an opinion. Issues such as commenting on competitive dressage at the highest levels or use and misuse of rollkur.

As though some of us couldn’t possibly know what “throughness” looks like. :rolleyes:

One of the stupidest comebacks in dressage commentary is “Well the judge rewarded it, it must be correct!” Not. Seen it on here a lot though… At least competitive dressage is looking a lot better than it did at the last WEG and Olympics. Some of the tests were a real delight to watch.

[QUOTE=Winding Down;7108372]
I have little to add, other than I so enjoy the intellectual banter of the dressage forum. Seriously. Love having my morning coffee and sauntering over from eventing land to read with interest what others have to say.

Here are my minor points:

  1. Go to a local show in Germany. There are a lot of rabid snails competing who struggle to sit the trot, steer vaguely, and have horses saluting the clouds with their noses. Bad riding is everywhere.
  2. There will always be some people who, no matter how much training they receive, never can ride adequately. They are simply physiologically and perhaps psychologically limited. We know who they (we) are. They can sit down with a cup of coffee and talk endlessly about dressage and so so intelligently. They spend much $$ on good horses (if they can). They have good and patient trainers, who work on the same basics week after week. They attend clinics and thoroughly enjoy them. They never get it. But they are often our best friends, if not actually us.

I hate the idea of excluding these people. They pay their $$ and they work and God bless them, they don’t give up.

Call me a softie, but I think trainers should understand that sharing their knowledge, even with those who have no promise of shining, is a good thing to do. If heir clinics don’t fill with top riders, then why not? [/QUOTE]

Thanks for saying so well what I’ve been struggling to voice. I teach people who really try but due to physical struggles, horses etc. will probably never be up to riding with CHS. This doesn’t make me a poor trainer or them hopeless. It just means we are going at the rate that they can sustain.

[QUOTE=pony418;7108261]
The point you are all missing, can be summed up here by “amateurs’ struggles”. CH is saying that there should NOT be that much struggle, be it 6 years or whatever. CH is pointing out to Americans that the system is broken by trainers that cannot teach the basics or because clients don’t want to hear criticism. There are good FEI level trainers that take on beginners and make progress with them. But there are more “trainers” at shows, following someone around the warm up with comments like “more inside leg…rounder…etc…” that sound perfectly reasonable until you see who they are talking to. Many times, it is a rider that is appallingly lacking in the basics that CH mentions, like steering. Or even barely remaining in the saddle. Hands are flying all over the place, etc…I even had one adult amateur rider proudly tell me all about her new trainer that was getting great walk/canter transitions on her horse. She then proceeded to show a video where the horse threw his head in the air for 10 steps of completely disorganized jog-trot between the actual walk steps and the canter depart. Delusional.

Get over yourselves America. Most amateurs suck and it’s not because they don’t want to “sweat”. Therein lies the American problem. A work ethic so screwed around that they think they should just keep trying “harder” and will somehow get better. CH appreciates effort like no other, she just doesn’t want to see it so routinely wasted.

It’s laughable that you want an apology from someone finally telling the truth. And if you think you’re so noble–how would a few months of training on the longe line make you feel? I bet you’d have a big problem with that. Now ask yourself why. Because you think you are better than that. Because you have the right to “struggle and sweat”, and by the way, pull your horses mouth around like a ski rope while you try to find some balance.

And before the comments start. I am a rider that thought I was pretty good second level shit. Until I took a bio mechanics lesson, on the lunge line, and learned what it was supposed to feel like. I’ll be on that lunge line happily and proudly and will call CH for a lesson when I deserve one.

All that being said…CH is coming from the German system, with many riding clubs and schools with decent lesson horses. The better question to ask, from this editorial is, how can we get a better training system like that? And that is what she is saying…let her train trainers who can then go out and train basics better. That’s a better system. But until Americans want to learn that way, good luck. Until then, keep telling yourself that that was a good canter depart–at least you’ll believe it if no one else does.[/QUOTE]

AMEN! Times a thousand!

Comes down to this: Do we want to really address what is lacking in our system, or just sling dudgeon and call names at anyone who isn’t living up to the small-town high-school definition of “nicey-nice” and “non-judgemental?”

Top trainers are not here to make you “feel good about yourself” or “actualize your anima.” They are going to be ruthlessly honest to make you into an EFFECTIVE RIDER. Which means you’re going to have to be ruthlessely honest with YOURSELF. And about your horse! Those trainers tend to be more effective than sweet. If you’re the real deal, though–they will kill and die for you. They’re that dedicated. You need to be, too, if you want a second look.

For CHS- some helpful clinic advice for dealing with RGNs
(from over on the around the farm forum)

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?411373-snail-problems-on-the-farm&p=7108500#post7108500

a) Put out some pie pans with flat beer in them. Snails will crawl in, get drunk, and drown.

b) Go outside with your salt shaker and sprinkle salt on every snail you see. They’ll slime themselves to death.

c) Get a couple of guineas or chickens — I’m sure they’d happily snarf up every one of them.

[QUOTE=2tempe;7108445]
I have watched a significant number of rider over the last 8 years taking dressage lessons once a week even though they have no particular goals or aspirations. They like the lessons, don’t want to work in the interim - or have schedule issues, family issues or want to trail ride… These people may show locally now and then, a few may ride in clinics, but basically they are “tinkering”. This is not the FAULT of the instructor, nor is it a reflection on said trainer’s ability to actually teach. Should trainers stop teaching these people? I don’t think so unless they are in such demand that there is no time. In my hunter days I knew people who took weekly lessons because they wanted to ride and do little jumps; had no horse, probably never would. Same issue, not ALWAYS a reflection on trainer quality.[/QUOTE]

But often it is.

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7108483]

One of the stupidest comebacks in dressage commentary is “Well the judge rewarded it, it must be correct!”[/QUOTE]

Never have I or would I say such a ridiculous thing. Judges are fallible, there’s the halo effect, and judging is subjective. I have no problem considering other people’s opinions; what I object to is when people go over the top in their criticisms of Anky, Edward, CHS, GM, Denny Emerson, etc. etc. They are human beings with feelings. They have worked hard to get where they are. You may not like their style of riding, style of teaching or style of writing, but I don’t think that gives anyone the right to tear them apart in a public forum.

OK - this woman has had success in Dressage. From what I’ve seen of her performance at the USET fund raiser - she seems to have the false impression that she’s an “entertainer”. She is NOT.
Now as a clinician - she feels she needs to once again take the spotlight and complain about those many, many horse owners who will never be “high performance” material are annoying to …no actually beneath her.
Some advise - if you don’t want to work with individuals who are not aiming at GP…don’t take their money.
CHS - seems to ignore the fact that this sport depends on thousands of people who will never be great riders, but they pay trainers, they buy horses, they pay board, they pay dues, they pay entry fees, they buy equipment, on and on. They are the foundation upon which the “high performance” riders need to have the sport continue to exist.
I feel her best decision would be to cease to be a clinician.

It’s about learning how to ride a horse well. :yes:
We are not learning to be neurosurgeons here. This is not a live or die situation. No one will die if I don’t learn how to execute a lovely passage on a horse. :slight_smile:

Some of y’all are so over dramatic in your zeal to make Dressage the only thing worth dying for, it sounds like anyone who isn’t riding 78 times a week is pathetic and small and really does warrant a good salting, and now.

Newsflash: Some of us are perfectly content to be low level riders. My highest aspiration would be to start a few more young horses and help them down a good path toward being good citizens under saddle.

Would I take up a slot in a big name clinic? No, I wouldn’t. But even if I did, I don’t buy CH’s assertion (quoted below) that my presence pushed some deserving Fourth Level rider into the shrubbery.:smiley:


And I know that within a 100-mile radius of any clinic I do in the United States, there are more advanced riders who need my help.

Maybe they just aren’t that into you, Catherine. Has that ever crossed your mind?

[QUOTE=Winding Down;7108372]

Here are my minor points:

  1. Go to a local show in Germany. There are a lot of rabid snails competing who struggle to sit the trot, steer vaguely, and have horses saluting the clouds with their noses. Bad riding is everywhere.
  2. There will always be some people who, no matter how much training they receive, never can ride adequately. They are simply physiologically and perhaps psychologically limited. We know who they (we) are. They can sit down with a cup of coffee and talk endlessly about dressage and so so intelligently. They spend much $$ on good horses (if they can). They have good and patient trainers, who work on the same basics week after week. They attend clinics and thoroughly enjoy them. They never get it. But they are often our best friends, if not actually us.

I hate the idea of excluding these people. They pay their $$ and they work and God bless them, they don’t give up.

Call me a softie, but I think trainers should understand that sharing their knowledge, even with those who have no promise of shining, is a good thing to do. If heir clinics don’t fill with top riders, then why not?
QUOTE]

What is said above: Most of the AAs I see work very hard to progress-but the older ones are limited by physical issues, fear, etc. They make progress-but not anywhere near what a younger rider would make. It doesn’t mean they are getting bad training. I would imagine most of the AAs in CHS clinics get regular training, with a decent instructor. I doubt many back yard, hang out your shingle and hope trainers are bringing CHS in for a clinic. And I bet the same things CHS says to them re contact, position, etc are things there own trainers have said over, and over again.

And Pony418, did you let this rider know what was happening with her horse was incorrect? That it was not a good simple change? That perhaps she needed a new trainer? Because if you didn’t, you are part of the problem CHS is blogging about!!

I have cliniced with CHS. She did push her saddles. One rider did seem to improve her sitting trot in them. Most did not. I found her to be pleasant, funny, and made improvements with every rider. All worked on position, contact, gaits, even the pros. The main complaints from those who rode and audited her was the saddle pushing.

[QUOTE=high hat;7108485]
Thanks for saying so well what I’ve been struggling to voice. I teach people who really try but due to physical struggles, horses etc. will probably never be up to riding with CHS. This doesn’t make me a poor trainer or them hopeless. It just means we are going at the rate that they can sustain.[/QUOTE]

And this is true across sports. Go to any top ski resort and you will see flubbering skiers taking lessons from big name Olympians. They bring the $$ and it provides an income to the trainer. Very simple.

In eventing, we have the perpetual Beginner Novice Riders who, year after year, stay at that level. What’s wrong with that? And they also fill clinics with the likes of Boyd Martin, Phillip Dutton, Karen O’Connor, Lucinda Green, etc. They are often weekend riders, who also foxhunt, trail ride, etc. These big name trainers, comparatively far beyond CH, are pleasant and helpful and create exercises that are relevant. They KNOW that their income is dependent on their working with those who will not progress beyond this level. It’s a fact of the business.

In fact, the bread and butter of the clinics with big name clinicians, are the beginner novice and novice groups. The very advanced riders rarely do clinics. They train already with the big names on a weekly basis.

The idea that top level trainers should not be dealing with the low level, wannabee, nevergoingtowin folks is ridiculous.

Do you think dressage shows could continue to exist without their entry $$ ?

Again, I think this is true across disciplines and sports. Tis the nature of the game.

[QUOTE=Crockpot;7108506]
For CHS- some helpful clinic advice for dealing with RGNs
(from over on the around the farm forum)

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?411373-snail-problems-on-the-farm&p=7108500#post7108500[/QUOTE]

Add: make sure you get their $$ first! :lol:

At the very least she evidences that Trainers are not always Teachers. True teachers see where there is a missing link in someone’s training and the work with them to fill in that link. Very often it takes minimal effort and perhaps just a different way of explaining it makes a huge difference in how the rider processes the information.

But in this case - I think the old saying applies… “A cat that sits on a hot stove won’t sit on a hot stove again…but it probably won’t sit on a colt one either”. There will probably be more people passing on CHS’s clinics than signing up for them in the future.

Will her remarks make a huge difference in the quality of our Trainers in this country? I think not. We have no standard requirements and many people feel that just because someone rides FEI - that they are good people to train with and that is a very false concept.

do you guys remember the energizer bunny ads?

[QUOTE=pony418;7108261]
The point you are all missing, can be summed up here by “amateurs’ struggles”. CH is saying that there should NOT be that much struggle, be it 6 years or whatever. CH is pointing out to Americans that the system is broken by trainers that cannot teach the basics or because clients don’t want to hear criticism. There are good FEI level trainers that take on beginners and make progress with them. But there are more “trainers” at shows, following someone around the warm up with comments like “more inside leg…rounder…etc…” that sound perfectly reasonable until you see who they are talking to. Many times, it is a rider that is appallingly lacking in the basics that CH mentions, like steering. Or even barely remaining in the saddle. Hands are flying all over the place, etc…I even had one adult amateur rider proudly tell me all about her new trainer that was getting great walk/canter transitions on her horse. She then proceeded to show a video where the horse threw his head in the air for 10 steps of completely disorganized jog-trot between the actual walk steps and the canter depart. Delusional.

Get over yourselves America. Most amateurs suck and it’s not because they don’t want to “sweat”. Therein lies the American problem. A work ethic so screwed around that they think they should just keep trying “harder” and will somehow get better. CH appreciates effort like no other, she just doesn’t want to see it so routinely wasted.

It’s laughable that you want an apology from someone finally telling the truth. And if you think you’re so noble–how would a few months of training on the longe line make you feel? I bet you’d have a big problem with that. Now ask yourself why. Because you think you are better than that. Because you have the right to “struggle and sweat”, and by the way, pull your horses mouth around like a ski rope while you try to find some balance.

And before the comments start. I am a rider that thought I was pretty good second level shit. Until I took a bio mechanics lesson, on the lunge line, and learned what it was supposed to feel like. I’ll be on that lunge line happily and proudly and will call CH for a lesson when I deserve one.

All that being said…CH is coming from the German system, with many riding clubs and schools with decent lesson horses. The better question to ask, from this editorial is, how can we get a better training system like that? And that is what she is saying…let her train trainers who can then go out and train basics better. That’s a better system. But until Americans want to learn that way, good luck. Until then, keep telling yourself that that was a good canter depart–at least you’ll believe it if no one else does.[/QUOTE]

just quoting because it needs to be said again…

This post which had a photo a rider in a clinic with CH has been removed because it was inappropriate of me to post it. I only meant to discuss the saddle not the rider.

[QUOTE=katarine;7108534]
It’s about learning how to ride a horse well. :yes:
We are not learning to be neurosurgeons here. This is not a live or die situation. No one will die if I don’t learn how to execute a lovely passage on a horse. :slight_smile:

Some of y’all are so over dramatic in your zeal to make Dressage the only thing worth dying for, it sounds like anyone who isn’t riding 78 times a week is pathetic and small and really does warrant a good salting, and now.

Newsflash: Some of us are perfectly content to be low level riders. My highest aspiration would be to start a few more young horses and help them down a good path toward being good citizens under saddle.

Would I take up a slot in a big name clinic? No, I wouldn’t. But even if I did, I don’t buy CH’s assertion (quoted below) that my presence pushed some deserving Fourth Level rider into the shrubbery.:smiley:


And I know that within a 100-mile radius of any clinic I do in the United States, there are more advanced riders who need my help.

Maybe they just aren’t that into you, Catherine. Has that ever crossed your mind?[/QUOTE]

:yes:

Maybe they have found a clinician with less snark, more teach, and certainly more FUN, and one they don’t have to worry about being one of the faceless many talked about in a clinician’s blog. They might have found one who isn’t into Internet commentary and lets their web designer handle it. Ya never know.

1 Like

This point bears repeating.

[QUOTE=mbm;7108590]
do you guys remember the energizer bunny ads?[/QUOTE]

Well, I suppose there’s something to be said about the thread not getting so nasty as to need the intervention of much moderating. However, I do think it’s long past the time to start introducing talk of food and recipe sharing.